Buying a boat

[Mr Cassandra]

I am going to buy myself a new to me boat, I have contacted three different brokers all listing the same type boat at not too dissimilar prices. On asking each for more details, all sent me the exact same information that was in the original specification. Yachtworld.

One broker was in Greece another Italy and one in France. The Greek one said they do not charge the buyer a fee.
Is this Normal to charge a buyer a fee?

Another question on the Italian boat it is registered in Italy.
Does it take three months to remove from the register? And could I local sail this boat while its getting removed from the register?

And are there any problems buying a boat in France that I do not know about. ?

 

[Thedreamoneday]

No broker fees to be paid by the buyer in Greece, in Italy the buyer pays the broker fee (or that was my experience) don't know any thing about France.

I bought my boat in Greece but only because it was the right one!

 

[Portofino]

Bought mine in Italy .2014

Broker fee is negotiable ( like everything else in IT - )

Yes you can sail away after purchase - the broker should give you via the port authority it’s reg in a temp reg cert .- that’s crucial v important you get that .

You have to be an IT citizen to keep under there flag and I understand some of there safety requirements are strict .

Not saying that’s a bad thing .


While sailing in IT waters you need the temp discharge cert and the original “ blue book “ #
Guardia d Finanza will ask for those if you are pulled up while sailing in IT waters - we were stopped btw outside Roma .

When you are “ home “

Send the blue book back to the broker and - yes it takes a couple of months for the discharge cert to arrive .Yes the few hundred € fee is negotiable with the broker .
Then you can remove the IT ensign - hair dryer off the reg number decals - and apply online for our part 3 SSR .

One of the questions Cardiff asks is a declaration ( reminding you it’s illegal) to attemp to reg a boat AND be on another registry.

It’s up to you how you approach that , timing wise .


Hope I,am not teaching grandma to suck eggs on this next topic - negotiations——-
You see they have a “ white price “ and another price
The “white price “ is what’s written on official paper work

Depending on the value of the boat in IT and Fr ,there’s a culture if they “ trust you “ and you kinda trust them of various ways to mitigate the written price on the doc,s - those docs go the port authority so officialdom knows the sale price .

So eyes wide open and it’s your decision how flexible you want to be .

Examples - not exclusive
Pay part to his “ sister “ by bacs
Hand a brown envelope or bag over to top up the written price .
Pay the broker via a brown envelope ( less than the typical % of cause )

Other side dangles a carrot like - chuck in the tender or spare props , some marina berth time , fills the tank , or what ever is agreed .
I have 1st hand experience of this culture in Fr and IT - can,t speak for GR ——- but I can take an educated guess

While under the IT flag - make sure safety wise every thing is indate and ship shape and Bristol fashion .
Your broker should help .

# blue book —— think U.K. V5 the car reg doc you phaff about with @ Swansea - changing cars .
Each IT port authority has its own reg dept - you know IT bureaucracy - why have a centralised system when you can have loads on the taxpayers gravy train .
There in lies the prob , tax saturation- so everyone try’s to dodge paying = leaving the gov bankrupt.imho

Incidentally although you not asked it’s for private individuals proof of VAT payment in IT , the Reg process for private individuals is link to VAT ( and other taxes ) traceability.
The port authority will not issue the release / transfer docs unless if the owner owes anything to them on the boat .
For a private IT person to reg it in the 1st place proof of VAT payment is needed - so the “ blue book “ is good for that side of things

I don,t think there’s a buyers broker fee in Fr btw

 

[macd]

in Italy the buyer pays the broker fee (or that was my experience)

Your end of the 'experience' is probably correct. It's usual in Italy for both buyer and seller to pay a commission fee to the broker/agent, including transactions for things other than boats. These wouldn't necessarily go to the same person/entity, since sometimes one agent acts for the seller, another for the buyer.

 

[BrianH]

No broker fees to be paid by the buyer in Greece, in Italy the buyer pays the broker fee (or that was my experience) don't know any thing about France.

Your end of the 'experience' is probably correct. It's usual in Italy for both buyer and seller to pay a commission fee to the broker/agent, including transactions for things other than boats. These wouldn't necessarily go to the same person/entity, since sometimes one agent acts for the seller, another for the buyer.

This has been my experience too when I tried to buy through an Italian broker, but since the German broker, Michael Schmidt & Partner opened branches in Italy, they introduced the northern European principle of charging only the seller a commission.

The Italian broker originally asked both seller and prospective buyer (me) for 4% of the sale price. I refused and he dropped it to 2%, I still refused and walked.

When I sold in Italy the local Michael Schmidt & Partner had two rates - exclusive and non-exclusive (6% and 8% if I remember). I chose the latter and, at the same time advertised on Boat24 for free, which found a buyer. I told them to go to the broker but they were closed for a long Christmas break and he was so keen that he wanted to pay a deposit and was prepared to wait until I arrived in April if I would keep it for him., which is what we did.

The broker was totally accepting that I had found a buyer privately and only asked the buyer's details to be assured that he had not had contact through them.

 

[Irish Rover]

Based on my recent experience buying a boat offered by the Greek branch a British broker my strong advice would be to avoid brokers completely if you can but, if not, then don't believe anything they tell you unless they provide full documentary proof so you can check it out yourself.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I have contacted three brokers in various counties asking for more detail and an inventory. ALL have sent the original spec from YachtWorld . Even though this is the second time of asking.
Its hard to believe, but the whole industry appears to be incompetent.

 

[Tranona]

I have contacted three brokers in various counties asking for more detail and an inventory. ALL have sent the original spec from YachtWorld . Even though this is the second time of asking.
Its hard to believe, but the whole industry appears to be incompetent.

Why do you think they are incompetent? What were you expecting that they did not provide? Surely once you have details of what is on offer the onus is on you in your second request to ask for any additional information not so far provided.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I have contacted three brokers in various counties asking for more detail and an inventory. ALL have sent the original spec from YachtWorld . Even though this is the second time of asking.
Its hard to believe, but the whole industry appears to be incompetent.

I would say their are more then just incompetent, bloody laze got no people skill, and doing almost nothing for their commission,
once they had to print out every listing spend time and money posting them out that's with the cost of all their advertising, now they just push a button and email the detail which in some cases are not even the details of the boat their sell but photo from another boat.

Barnacle mention Michael Schmidt , in 1989 I brought a boat through them that was I Gremany, when viewing they picked me up from the airport and drove me 120 miles each way to view the boat same happen after I brought the boat and went to pick it up. All free of charge, they even arranged an hotel, I very much doubt you get that service from any broker now,
Count your lucky stars if they can be bother to turn up on time.

 

[Irish Rover]

I would say their are more then just incompetent, bloody laze got no people skill, and doing almost nothing for their commission, once they had to print out every listing spend time and money posting them out that's with the cost of all their advertising, now they just push a button and email the detail which in some cases are not even the details of the boat their sell but photo from another boat.

I'm in total agreement. I haven't had a single totally satisfactory experience in dealing with brokers. The level of relevant information you get from an owner offering a boat for sale directly is far greater than what you get from a broker and they are much more accommodating in relation to viewings etc. The guy who first maligned second hand car salesmen as shysters had obviously never met a yacht broker. Most of the secondhand car salesmen I've met were personable and smiled at you and at least had the good grace to pretend it was a pleasure screwing you over but bloody yacht brokers behave as if they're doing you a favour just speaking to you. They're the dregs in my book. OP might like to have a look at a thread I posted recently detailing my experience with a British broker and their branch office in Greece http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?495544-Lefkas-Yacht-Brokers

 

[Portofino]

I have contacted three brokers in various counties asking for more detail and an inventory. ALL have sent the original spec from YachtWorld . Even though this is the second time of asking.
Its hard to believe, but the whole industry appears to be incompetent.

“Contacted”
Phone them
Explain you are long range and request additional pics before going through the expense of travel to view .
It’s a kinda sorting the wheat from the chaff excerise.
I had three prospects
Fr - handy as Just down the road - so to speak
Gr - Athens
IT - Naples .
Went to see the Fr broker as nearby - saw the history file - boat had been in a hanger for 4 years and still was .
Covered in dust .
Gr boat - at the time ( 2014 ) local s were rioting on the streets and shooting bank staff - somewhere in all that I was suppose to pay .
IT Broker. Was excellent- ans all my questions, sent additional info - e mail .
We started a phone dialogue as well as E ,
Ended up with a proposition
“ will you come to view the boat and buy for this price “
The price was substantially below asking some 40 %
He offered and we accepted pick up and drop off at the airport , and a seatrial — to Capri and back .
We did a deal - that worked for all parties - let’s just leave it at that

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Why do you think they are incompetent? What were you expecting that they did not provide? Surely once you have details of what is on offer the onus is on you in your second request to ask for any additional information not so far provided.

Exactly, that's why I asked them for an inventory and they sent me the same detail as the first time. One did ask me for a conditional offer before sending out more details.Is this a + or a _ ?

 

[Mr Cassandra]

“Contacted”
Phone them
Explain you are long range and request additional pics before going through the expense of travel to view .
It’s a kinda sorting the wheat from the chaff excerise.
I had three prospects
Fr - handy as Just down the road - so to speak
Gr - Athens
IT - Naples .
Went to see the Fr broker as nearby - saw the history file - boat had been in a hanger for 4 years and still was .
Covered in dust .
Gr boat - at the time ( 2014 ) local s were rioting on the streets and shooting bank staff - somewhere in all that I was suppose to pay .
IT Broker. Was excellent- ans all my questions, sent additional info - e mail .
We started a phone dialogue as well as E ,
Ended up with a proposition
“ will you come to view the boat and buy for this price “
The price was substantially below asking some 40 %
He offered and we accepted pick up and drop off at the airport, and a seatrial — to Capri and back .
We did a deal - that worked for all parties - let’s just leave it at that

I think I remember that thread, was there not a local that used this forum that offered you help?
I did phone the one in Trieste he was driving his car said he would contact me when he got to the office ,he has my email and phone number but has not bothered to further any more information other than the standard Yacht world prospetus, we are not talking about a cheap boat,Its a lot more than my new 5L Jaguar xkr, I was nealy offered head when I bought that...

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I'm in total agreement. I haven't had a single totally satisfactory experience in dealing with brokers. The level of relevant information you get from an owner offering a boat for sale directly is far greater than what you get from a broker and they are much more accommodating in relation to viewings etc. The guy who first maligned second hand car salesmen as shysters had obviously never met a yacht broker. Most of the secondhand car salesmen I've met were personable and smiled at you and at least had the good grace to pretend it was a pleasure screwing you over but bloody yacht brokers behave as if they're doing you a favour just speaking to you. They're the dregs in my book. OP might like to have a look at a thread I posted recently detailing my experience with a British broker and their branch office in Greece http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?495544-Lefkas-Yacht-Brokers

Yes, thats why I am trying to buy a boat outside of Greece.

 

[Irish Rover]

Yes, thats why I am trying to buy a boat outside of Greece.

I don't think the problem is Greece per se. The problem is lazy, incompetent yacht brokers generally in all countries it seems although there may be exceptions. The last ones I dealt with were British with a branch office in Greece and I was told the main cock-up was the responsibility of the UK office Director who was then and still is a member of the governing committee of the ABYA.

 

[Portofino]

I think I remember that thread, was there not a local that used this forum that offered you help?

Nope
Muddled through my self .Told the forum after the event on return from the initial trip once the deal was agreed and finalised in a restaurant over a glass or two of wine ,on the broker .

Took a 2 nd pair of eyes to Naples - a guy who would make Vinnie Jones run

Start by phoning the brokers - establishing a rapport .
Ask how old the pics are , how long it’s been on the market. Reason for sale , where is it currently etc -
Any abvious problems , deep scratches, broken windlass , or what ever ,

“I don,t want to fly all this way and be disappointed “etc.

“If it’s as described - I offer xyz ,if you arrange transport to / from airport “

Put yourself in the brokers shoes - if you are serious about buying it ( as described/ free of major defects ) let him know .
Ring them up

 

[Gallant Spirit]

I used Nicholl Associates to buy 8 yrs ago very good service so not all bad

 

[Irish Rover]

I used Nicholl Associates to buy 8 yrs ago very good service so not all bad

I’m sure there are some good guys out there and even the pompous bluffers can’t mess up every single sale they handle despite their natural inbuilt inclination to do so.

 

[Cariadco]

Over 20 years ago, I bought a boat through a broker in Athens. He was superb!! and couldn't do enough (he was Dutch though). Bought my current boat through Boatshed in Gib (about 12 years ago), and the broker there, was also superb. I even stayed at his place, whilst looking at the boat, and he transported me from and to the Airport. Sadly he's back in the uk now, doing something else.
But now, I've sold my boat myself.
One UK Based central office, broker did call me and stated he had a customer lined up, so did I want them to sell it to him, said yes, and then.....didn't hear anything else from them!!
Then I found my boat was for sale on loads of web sites!! All without me having signed anything!!
OK, bit of a moot point now, as the boat sails away, next week (hopefully with the new owner).
There is an excellent broker, here in Corfu, I highly recomend him, and a star to deal with....
http://www.pinnacleyachtsales.com/
Regards.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Nope
Muddled through my self .Told the forum after the event on return from the initial trip once the deal was agreed and finalised in a restaurant over a glass or two of wine ,on the broker .

Took a 2 nd pair of eyes to Naples - a guy who would make Vinnie Jones run

Start by phoning the brokers - establishing a rapport .
Ask how old the pics are , how long it’s been on the market. Reason for sale , where is it currently etc -
Any abvious problems , deep scratches, broken windlass , or what ever ,

“I don,t want to fly all this way and be disappointed “etc.

“If it’s as described - I offer xyz ,if you arrange transport to/from airport “

Put yourself in the brokers' shoes - if you are serious about buying it ( as described/ free of major defects ) let him know .
Ring them up

Hi
As you have experience in buying a yacht in Italy, may I ask a few questions as the brokers English is non exsistent.
How much to de-register an Italian flag boat?
Is there any crusing/boat tax that I have seen mentioned on the internet? As if the deal go`s through I will stay in a local marina and day sail some days for a few months and get work done on boat before leaving for Greece