Buying a boat in Italy

[AnnelyR]

I'm a new member and hopefully doing this right.
My partner and I are looking for some advice and recommendations.
We are in the process of buying a boat on Toscana coast. Unfortunately our surveyor (local company) has not performed very well and we are looking for another at a short notice. Can anyone recommend?
Also, the survey that the local surveyor produced was merely descriptive, i.e. what anyone can see from photos and by just walking around the boat. It contained very little technical detail and none of the equipment was tested for fitness for purpose, no mention of condition of keel bolts, sea cocks, rigging etc.
Considering the cost (almost twice as much as some UK surveyors would charge for a much more detailed survey), we would have expected more. Is this a standard in Italy and are we expecting too much?
We are planning for a circumnavigation and need assurance that boat is in a sound condition as there will be times when our lives are dependent on it.
Many thanks in advance.

 

[seumask]

Consider flying your own surveyor out?

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

@MapisM has given me some fantastic local (Italian) advice in the past.

 

[langstonelayabout]

I'm a new member and hopefully doing this right.
My partner and I are looking for some advice and recommendations.
We are in the process of buying a boat on Toscana coast. Unfortunately our surveyor (local company) has not performed very well and we are looking for another at a short notice. Can anyone recommend?
Also, the survey that the local surveyor produced was merely descriptive, i.e. what anyone can see from photos and by just walking around the boat. It contained very little technical detail and none of the equipment was tested for fitness for purpose, no mention of condition of keel bolts, sea cocks, rigging etc.
Considering the cost (almost twice as much as some UK surveyors would charge for a much more detailed survey), we would have expected more. Is this a standard in Italy and are we expecting too much?
We are planning for a circumnavigation and need assurance that boat is in a sound condition as there will be times when our lives are dependent on it.
Many thanks in advance.

The last few surveys I’ve paid for have had caveats from the surveyor regarding the condition of the engine (not run: pay a pro engineer), rigging (not checked, pay a pro rigger), unknown gas installation (get it inspected and Gas Safe certified).

Amusingly a surveyor working for a buyer of my last boat questioned the authenticity of a Gas Safe certificate as he didn’t personally know the engineer who signed it. Shame, as their names and qualifications are on the Internet for the purposes of verification!

I’ve seen another survey criticising the covering of keel bolts in GRP by an amateur when the keel bolts were covered with GRP when the boat was new.

I‘m saying that a modern surveyor will cover his backside so much that you need to develop the competence to judge the condition of parts of your boat yourself. Don’t rely on the so-called professionals.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Our last surveyor reported that our EPIRB batteries were out of date. The EPIRB was new last year and he’d looked at ‘date of manufacture’.

 

[AnnelyR]

@MapisM has given me some fantastic local (Italian) advice in the past.

Thank you!

 

[AnnelyR]

Consider flying your own surveyor out?

Yes, we are, but everyone is reluctant due to changing COVID situation.

 

[Koeketiene]

I‘m saying that a modern surveyor will cover his backside so much that you need to develop the competence to judge the condition of parts of your boat yourself. Don’t rely on the so-called professionals.

+1
One boat we were looking at years ago had been treated for osmosis.
This had been a DIY job.
The hull below the waterline was noticeably thinner below the waterline.

Surveyor's comment: The hull probably remains adequately strong.
This read to me as: she might float but don't hold me to it.

We passed on the boat.

 

[KINGFISHER 9]

Ripping off foreigners is standard practice in most Mediterranean countries! .....

 

[AnnelyR]

+1
One boat we were looking at years ago had been treated for osmosis.
This had been a DIY job.
The hull below the waterline was noticeably thinner below the waterline.

Surveyor's comment: The hull probably remains adequately strong.
This read to me as: she might float but don't hold me to it.

We passed on the boat.

Unbelievable! Thanks for this, may be worth pointing out to our surveyor specifically.

 

[northwind]

Is the only example of the boat you are buying available in Italy? Or or others available? It might be less stressful to buy a boat in the UK and have it delivered to your destination, rather than suffer at the hands of language barriers?

 

[dulls]

The last few surveys I’ve paid for have had caveats from the surveyor regarding the condition of the engine (not run: pay a pro engineer), rigging (not checked, pay a pro rigger), unknown gas installation (get it inspected and Gas Safe certified).

Amusingly a surveyor working for a buyer of my last boat questioned the authenticity of a Gas Safe certificate as he didn’t personally know the engineer who signed it. Shame, as their names and qualifications are on the Internet for the purposes of verification!

I’ve seen another survey criticising the covering of keel bolts in GRP by an amateur when the keel bolts were covered with GRP when the boat was new.

I‘m saying that a modern surveyor will cover his backside so much that you need to develop the competence to judge the condition of parts of your boat yourself. Don’t rely on the so-called professionals.

I think that if you have owned a couple of boats you get a very good idea as to what to look for yourself. Apart from rigging and the engine you can get a very good idea of what the real condition of the boat is especially with some of the online check lists you can get on the net. If you are new to boats you need an experienced friend and a surveyor. My next boat will be surveyed but more for the sake of insurance. My first boat was GRP and was surveyed as i was new to boat owning . I had sailed plenty of GRP boats but did not have the owners critical eye. My next boat was steel so again was surveyed as i had no experience at all with steel. I had a great surveyor and he showed me what to look for . He showed me what was cheap to sort out and what was expensive to sort out. My next boat will be steel again and will be surveyed again. I dont think their is any true and tried method to getting a good surveyor. You have to remember many surveyors have relationships with the agents. Also get a surveyor who specialises in the material the boat is made in. Word of mouth from boat owners is your best bet but still not a sure fire method to getting a good one. I know a great surveyor but you would have to get him from Australia.

 

[AnnelyR]

Is the only example of the boat you are buying available in Italy? Or or others available? It might be less stressful to buy a boat in the UK and have it delivered to your destination, rather than suffer at the hands of language barriers?

It is Moody 44 and none for sale in UK at the moment. Language is not a barrier, all involved thus far can speak English and we have finally found a local surveyor who seems to be a lot more professional. Next challenge will be transportation back to UK!

 

[AnnelyR]

I think that if you have owned a couple of boats you get a very good idea as to what to look for yourself. Apart from rigging and the engine you can get a very good idea of what the real condition of the boat is especially with some of the online check lists you can get on the net. If you are new to boats you need an experienced friend and a surveyor. My next boat will be surveyed but more for the sake of insurance. My first boat was GRP and was surveyed as i was new to boat owning . I had sailed plenty of GRP boats but did not have the owners critical eye. My next boat was steel so again was surveyed as i had no experience at all with steel. I had a great surveyor and he showed me what to look for . He showed me what was cheap to sort out and what was expensive to sort out. My next boat will be steel again and will be surveyed again. I dont think their is any true and tried method to getting a good surveyor. You have to remember many surveyors have relationships with the agents. Also get a surveyor who specialises in the material the boat is made in. Word of mouth from boat owners is your best bet but still not a sure fire method to getting a good one. I know a great surveyor but you would have to get him from Australia.

Thanks for sound advice, much appreciated! Corruption and links to agents and dealers (which the seller is), is my main concern. I do have a feeling that there is something hidden that is not quite right... Would like to be optimistic and trusting, but need to remind myself that 'buyer beware'!

 

[AnnelyR]

Thanks for sound advice, much appreciated! Corruption and links to agents and dealers (which the seller is), is my main concern. I do have a feeling that there is something hidden that is not quite right... Would like to be optimistic and trusting, but need to remind myself that 'buyer beware'!

Do you think it would be wise to reject sellers offer to antifoul it for free whilst it is out of the water? Could hide something...

 

[crown22]

People check the physical condition of the boat and forget the money trail.I got burnt like that .Very important to see the original Bill of Sale to show VAT was paid.It should be a wet document i.e. not a photocopy.If the paperwork isn't right I would walk away.If work has been done then receipts will be available.e.g.keel bolts, rig,engine servicing.

 

[FlyingGoose]

A survey will not look at the engine or the rigging unless there is obvious damage you would need to hire individual people for these tasks
But they should do random tests of the hull and deck for moisture readings and turn on all electronics.
They will not check gas as they are not qualified to do so. They should look at sails for general condition and over all condition of the boat
I appreciate your predicament in regards to viewing it but this is part of the buying process as you are allowed to poke around and determine the condition of the boat
If spending thousands on a boat and circumnavigateing the money spent now geing rigger in and an engineer to look over the engine is money well spent for the long run

 

[dulls]

Thanks for sound advice, much appreciated! Corruption and links to agents and dealers (which the seller is), is my main concern. I do have a feeling that there is something hidden that is not quite right... Would like to be optimistic and trusting, but need to remind myself that 'buyer beware'!

The thing is follow the surveyor around and point at anything you think looks dodgy. Also does your surveyor crawl around the spaces where it is hard to get to? The other thing is if he turns up with a gadget that measures this or that get the make and model so you can go online and see what the gadget really does and what it can really do if the boat has just been lifted for inspection out of the water. Its limitations etc. Your best bet is to absorb as much information about your next boat and its construction from the internet. Owners sights are good up to a point but they are not going to be completely honest about the boat as they have to sell it at some point. Buyer beware......

 

[northwind]

It is Moody 44 and none for sale in UK at the moment. Language is not a barrier, all involved thus far can speak English and we have finally found a local surveyor who seems to be a lot more professional. Next challenge will be transportation back to UK!

As other have said, on the value of the boat, find a good surveyor and fly him out. My comment about language was trying to be polite, perhaps I should say cultural differences, there are many reports on this forum of people being stitched up and loosing money when trying to buy boats from Italians.. Talk to @Whitelighter of this forum for example.

 

[Wansworth]

Presumably you will sail it back!