Buying a boat in Italy.

[Portofino]

One thing about private sellers , we too helpful and obliging .
Before I sold my boat in Aug , there where too many mistake made on my part , and only once I learned the right way to sell that I got serious buyers .
Mistake 1 , don't do any sea trial until a contacted is sign .
Mistake 2 if a buyer is moaning about the Amount of deposit then he has to pay , watch out .
Mistake 3 use an contact something like the RYA , don't invent the wheel .
Mistake 4 don't alter contact to suite you or the buyer , more contact are fair to both party .
Mistake 5 offers over the phone before the boat is seen are not worth considering.
Tell them that they can make a offer after the boat is view .

Cutting out mistake will get rid of he tyres kickers , sea trails are just that , to check over equipment you can't check while the boat is on the hard or in the Marina , it's nothing to do with how well the boat sails or how well it points .
So there no point in sea trial until after the survey has been done and everything is what it should be .

Viewing , offer, survey, sea trial.

Nearly all broker contact have a clause saying that unless major fauit are found the buyer can't just walk away .
What count as a major fauit can be stated in the contract , normally is engine , gearbox , GRP like osmosis, keel , mast damage , at this point the buyer can ask for his full deposit back ,
other fault that are found are then agreed by the party's how they will be put right,
Don't expect to knock off 8 or 10 k of the asking price and then expect the seller to replace a bad seacock or a leaky window ,
Also if the rigging over 10 old your offer should allow for this so again don't expect to knock anther 5 k for replacing rigging .

I say this to buyers .
Have a good look around the boat , take account what need to be replace and the cost then make your offer , that way anything found you have already recovered the cost of repairs , that way you not wasting money on a haulout and surveyor .
Any major problem found can be decided how they will be put right or you have to option to walk away .
But most of all be fair with your offer , I stop any conversation that started with stupid offer , one guy offer was less then half the asking price , needless to say he never got the boat , his lose .

To the seller .
Have a good web site with plent of photo lots of close up including things like keel bolts ,
Make a Video to send to buyers again plenty of close up of the hull , show under floor and under seats and lockers .
If you not using the boat get it on the hard , that way buyer will be more interested has it will cut their cost when it come to surveying , plus it stop the time wastes who just looking for a day sail .
Be honest with your answer , no good knocking 500 hours of the clock , soon or later it will come to light .
Give the viewer plenty of time to view , leave them to it for a while .
One last thing get rid of your crap and make sure the boat is clean .
What put some people off is owners personal bits , they can't see beyond the crap .

To the OP I say this , if you given me that contract , I too would had send it back .

They don,t understand ^^^ above in Italy .
Remember it’s a long range viewing + language and cultural issues ,
“ when in Rome - do as —- etc ,etc “
If it’s what you want ,hard to find a fair price ,you have built a rapport with the broker, you seem serious then while you are there take the opportunity to go out and trial it .You want asfew barriers as possible erecting!

When I sold my Sunseeker ( based in the Cote d Azur ) , it went with in 3 weeks .
Experienced Brokers Sunseeker,fr told me what they were going for and how much % the buyers normally ask off .
So we or they pitched the price 8 % *** more than wanted .Hey presto it achieved it after the buyer chipped a bit off .
He initially arranged to fly down from Germany ( a Lotus franchised principle) on a Saturday to view .
He asked if he could bring his wife and two kids as they would a weekend in Cannes .I said yes .
Broker said to clinche the deal is it ok if I take them round the bay of Cannes .Broker is an experienced helm .
Sure I said you are selling it.
Cut a long story short ,it went the following Friday. Trucked to Germany .
Broker arranged a local storage Co to box up and store all my stuff as we were in the U.K.
Wham , bang , slam — gone in 6 days from viewing .Buyer arranged deposit on Monday lift n survey on Wednesday. broker took it the slings and returned it to mooring etc ,

There were 3 viewing in all two local and this German guy .
Locals went away did not ask for a run out .One was just relocated to Monaco and never boated ,the consensus was to start with a small 12 M Sunseeker .
He phoned back on the Monday (after the buyer paid a deposit ) it went requesting a sea trial , but alas it had gone .Too late

Buyer and family on Saturday wanted it ,after viewing and a run arround the bay - it was on the road to Germany Friday ,

So what are you saying ,Ask him to wait until Monday ( flying home Sun Pm ) ask him to send a deposit , then return the following week end to have a go in it ? you gotta make it easy for them :encouragement: close the sale and get rid of it .
Broker acted as the intermediary re the price and guided the buyer in his offer ,the told him there were two others interested , one seen it before him ( Monaco man ) and another due following weekend .
German guy bagged it — After a run out in it with the broker .
So not a time wasting exercise for me a 1000 miles away .

*** Broker explained the survey is a game the buyer needs his fee back ,minimum they all ways find something ,so we will factor this in .That 8%. Was broken down into the initial chip + the buyers survey fee .
Psychology is the buyer feels he’s got a deal .
There’s no point the seller risking stalling over a seacock or what have you !

 

[sailaboutvic]

They don,t understand ^^^ above in Italy .
Remember it’s a long range viewing + language and cultural issues ,
“ when in Rome - do as —- etc ,etc “
If it’s what you want ,hard to find a fair price ,you have built a rapport with the broker, you seem serious then while you are there take the opportunity to go out and trial it .You want asfew barriers as possible erecting!

When I sold my Sunseeker ( based in the Cote d Azur ) , it went with in 3 weeks .
Experienced Brokers Sunseeker,fr told me what they were going for and how much % the buyers normally ask off .
So we or they pitched the price 8 % *** more than wanted .Hey presto it achieved it after the buyer chipped a bit off .
He initially arranged to fly down from Germany ( a Lotus franchised principle) on a Saturday to view .
He asked if he could bring his wife and two kids as they would a weekend in Cannes .I said yes .
Broker said to clinche the deal is it ok if I take them round the bay of Cannes .Broker is an experienced helm .
Sure I said you are selling it.
Cut a long story short ,it went the following Friday. Trucked to Germany .
Broker arranged a local storage Co to box up and store all my stuff as we were in the U.K.
Wham , bang , slam — gone in 6 days from viewing .Buyer arranged deposit on Monday lift n survey on Wednesday. broker took it the slings and returned it to mooring etc ,

There were 3 viewing in all two local and this German guy .
Locals went away did not ask for a run out .One was just relocated to Monaco and never boated ,the consensus was to start with a small 12 M Sunseeker .
He phoned back on the Monday (after the buyer paid a deposit ) it went requesting a sea trial , but alas it had gone .Too late

Buyer and family on Saturday wanted it ,after viewing and a run arround the bay - it was on the road to Germany Friday ,

So what are you saying ,Ask him to wait until Monday ( flying home Sun Pm ) ask him to send a deposit , then return the following week end to have a go in it ? you gotta make it easy for them :encouragement: close the sale and get rid of it .
Broker acted as the intermediary re the price and guided the buyer in his offer ,the told him there were two others interested , one seen it before him ( Monaco man ) and another due following weekend .
German guy bagged it — After a run out in it with the broker .
So not a time wasting exercise for me a 1000 miles away .

*** Broker explained the survey is a game the buyer needs his fee back ,minimum they all ways find something ,so we will factor this in .That 8%. Was broken down into the initial chip + the buyers survey fee .
Psychology is the buyer feels he’s got a deal .
There’s no point the seller risking stalling over a seacock or what have you !

For a start your very lucky with your broker ,
I lay money there not many brokers who going to take people out on a joy ride before they sign a contract .
Hasone broker told me , if we did that we spend everydayof everyweek taken people out .
And I can see their point .

On another subject , what all this about , that the buyer of a boat has to pay commission to the broker in Italy ?

 

[spindreams]

Just to clarify as some people seem to think I have not seen the boat, I live in Sardinia (17 years) and so the boat is about as local as you get when buying a boat, I have seen the boat and it seems great as far as I can tell (not being an expert) and you could eat off the floor under the engine which is as good as I have seen anywhere, no obvious corrosion on the stays or chainplates, mainsail looks good, genoa needs looking at (has a patched rip and some frayed stitching on the UV strip) , winches look perfect, portlights are original but not even crazed at all, everything else looks in good condition.

 

[Portofino]

On another subject , what all this about , that the buyer of a boat has to pay commission to the broker in Italy ?

The buyer pays a% buyers fee to the broker ,
Not sure if the seller does ,but some times it can be split ,or indeed if the boats been languishing on the market ,the add may say ,no buyers fees .In other words the seller and broker are trying to incentivise a buyer .
It’s all negotiable .I don’t think anybody pays the asking % — say 5 % ,
3% is what I paid cash , down from 6 to 4 by paper .
There’s a “ white price “ and “another price “ btw which involves a brown envelope on hand over .Or a combination .

While we are on the subject of the finer nuances a couple more points may come into play buying a boat in Italy .
1- when the reg is transferred from seller to buyer at the port office on an official form ( broker arranged ) the seller has to sign it .
Unlike the U.K. ,boat reg or even car stuff think DVLA , —- get this — they record the transaction price .
So there’s a record of who got what and when ? —— nice

Just reflect for a moment of the possible implications of officialdom getting hold of that info !

Here’s another stat to help understand the official ave income in Italy is €6000 / annum .

Ahem. You’ve got —— the write down price is different to the actual amount you pay .
An easy 1 st step is loose the deposit that was paid earlier , and go from there .
2- on the same theme as above the “ owner “ or principle user ,or in U.K. DVLC car speak “ the keeper “ name may not appear in the blue book ie off the radar .
In this case it will be some one else like his sister or mother etc .
What I,am saying if you meet the “ owner “ his name may not be in the blue book .
When you wire the €€€ it s sent to the person in the blue book the “ sister “ - who has agreed for officialdom to see the transaction .This person signs over the reg at the port office .

So it’s possibe to end up with quit a bit of leverage .
% the Broker gets
Write down price adjustment
% of above ,wired to the person in the book ,% cash or wired to someone else .

As far a guardia De Finanza are concerned if stopped on the del trip ( we were btw ) ,you show them the original blue book with the “name “ in . You show them the temp transfer doc issued but the port office ( signed / witnessed) by the “ name “
Which has a figure in it .
We are not bothered what the figure is ,we are sailing out of IT waters .
Once out send the original book back ,broker arranged “ irradiation “ of the flag - dereg from IT .
You get a cert back which is as good as a VAT paid doc ..
Go online reg U.K. part 3 .

To the Op can,t you use a U.K. based persons address like your mum or siblings for part3 ? In there name of course ..
Your dads or brother is ideal as Mr Xyz .?

 

[Portofino]

Just to clarify as some people seem to think I have not seen the boat, I live in Sardinia (17 years) and so the boat is about as local as you get when buying a boat, I have seen the boat and it seems great as far as I can tell (not being an expert) and you could eat off the floor under the engine which is as good as I have seen anywhere, no obvious corrosion on the stays or chainplates, mainsail looks good, genoa needs looking at (has a patched rip and some frayed stitching on the UV strip) , winches look perfect, portlights are original but not even crazed at all, everything else looks in good condition.

One way for you — Once you have paid for it and your share of the commission to the broker .
Take a hair dryer to the decals , go on line ( ask your relative ) reg it on U.K. part 3. Pop a red sign on the flag staff - sail away to your home port ,never leaving IT waters .
Gardia de Finanza will not stop a “red “

There will be a naughty overlap as the Italians are slow @ “. irradiation of the flag “ takes a few weeks - Broker should do that . BTw this € is negotiable too pay near € 400/500 , they will start higher of course ., have fun dealing with them .

 

[sailaboutvic]

The buyer pays a% buyers fee to the broker ,
Not sure if the seller does ,but some times it can be split ,or indeed if the boats been languishing on the market ,the add may say ,no buyers fees .In other words the seller and broker are trying to incentivise a buyer .
It’s all negotiable .I don’t think anybody pays the asking % — say 5 % ,
3% is what I paid cash , down from 6 to 4 by paper .
There’s a “ white price “ and “another price “ btw which involves a brown envelope on hand over .Or a combination .

While we are on the subject of the finer nuances a couple more points may come into play buying a boat in Italy .
1- when the reg is transferred from seller to buyer at the port office on an official form ( broker arranged ) the seller has to sign it .
Unlike the U.K. ,boat reg or even car stuff think DVLA , —- get this — they record the transaction price .
So there’s a record of who got what and when ? —— nice

Just reflect for a moment of the possible implications of officialdom getting hold of that info !

Here’s another stat to help understand the official ave income in Italy is €6000 / annum .

Ahem. You’ve got —— the write down price is different to the actual amount you pay .
An easy 1 st step is loose the deposit that was paid earlier , and go from there .
2- on the same theme as above the “ owner “ or principle user ,or in U.K. DVLC car speak “ the keeper “ name may not appear in the blue book ie off the radar .
In this case it will be some one else like his sister or mother etc .
What I,am saying if you meet the “ owner “ his name may not be in the blue book .
When you wire the €€€ it s sent to the person in the blue book the “ sister “ - who has agreed for officialdom to see the transaction .This person signs over the reg at the port office .

So it’s possibe to end up with quit a bit of leverage .
% the Broker gets
Write down price adjustment
% of above ,wired to the person in the book ,% cash or wired to someone else .

As far a guardia De Finanza are concerned if stopped on the del trip ( we were btw ) ,you show them the original blue book with the “name “ in . You show them the temp transfer doc issued but the port office ( signed / witnessed) by the “ name “
Which has a figure in it .
We are not bothered what the figure is ,we are sailing out of IT waters .
Once out send the original book back ,broker arranged “ irradiation “ of the flag - dereg from IT .
You get a cert back which is as good as a VAT paid doc ..
Go online reg U.K. part 3 .

To the Op can,t you use a U.K. based persons address like your mum or siblings for part3 ? In there name of course ..
Your dads or brother is ideal as Mr Xyz .?

It's not that easy anymore to use an Address in the Uk to get an SSR reg .
My boat was so,d to an American and a British lady living in Italy , she had her daughter address but that wasn't enough , there wanted prove that they resign in the Uk , if you have an bank account in a uk address you still able to get away with it .

We looked At buying in Italy some years back by decided there too much hassle plus there plenty of boats about not to go tho all that .

 

[Portofino]

It's not that easy anymore to use an Address in the Uk to get an SSR reg .
My boat was so,d to an American and a British lady living in Italy , she had her daughter address but that wasn't enough , there wanted prove that they resign in the Uk , if you have an bank account in a uk address you still able to get away with it .

We looked At buying in Italy some years back by decided there too much hassle plus there plenty of boats about not to go tho all that .

Different cultures.—
Reg ,not in your name in the relative s that’s in the UK ,Part 3 is no proof of title btw .
But the fancy laminated cert fools foreigners at Capitaneries and other jobsworth s
Male to male sharing the same surname would be 1 st choice.

Any how good luck and keep your wits about you :encouragement:

 

[spindreams]

One way for you — Once you have paid for it and your share of the commission to the broker .
Take a hair dryer to the decals , go on line ( ask your relative ) reg it on U.K. part 3. Pop a red sign on the flag staff - sail away to your home port ,never leaving IT waters .
Gardia de Finanza will not stop a “red “

There will be a naughty overlap as the Italians are slow @ “. irradiation of the flag “ takes a few weeks - Broker should do that . BTw this € is negotiable too pay near € 400/500 , they will start higher of course ., have fun dealing with them .

No broker, private sale.

You can reg in holland before the dereg in italy, all they want is a copy of my passport and the bill of sale or an insurance cert (Takes a few days and they send the docs and even a flag), dutch don't require any displayed boat number/decals so good idea to remove them.

Is there any reason the Gardia de Finanza would be less interested in a UK reg than a dutch one?

I don't have a UK address I could realistically prove I was resident at any more. (No bills in my name) but I do have an address I receive mail too. Anyway I am not necessarily trying to avoid the tax man, the money to buy the boat came from an inheritance in any case, I just prefer not have to deal with Italian bureaucracy if I can avoid it. Even many italians register their boats out of Italy.

 

[Tranona]

But, if he continues to live in Italy, i.e., the EU, wouldn't a 'foreign' boat that is registered in a non-EU country (the UK post Brexit) draw the attention of the Guardia di Finanza?

Unlikely, but don't know until it happens. However non EU flagged boats can currently move freely if they are VAT paid. Free movement of boats is determined by VAT payment, not flag of registry.

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

Unlikely, but don't know until it happens. However non EU flagged boats can currently move freely if they are VAT paid. Free movement of boats is determined by VAT payment, not flag of registry.

My point was that he is living in Italy and, presumably, will keep his boat there. Now if that boat is registered outside of the EU - as in post-Brexit - technically he would be importing it into the EU and would be (I think) liable to pay VAT regardless of what taxes have already been paid before under the previous Italian flag.
I seem to recall on this forum (or the lounge?) that some people had nasty surprises in Spain when their UK flagged boats had been in Spanish water for more than a certain period and had to pay Spanish VAT because they had 'imported' their boat from elsewhere.

 

[sailaboutvic]

My point was that he is living in Italy and, presumably, will keep his boat there. Now if that boat is registered outside of the EU - as in post-Brexit - technically he would be importing it into the EU and would be (I think) liable to pay VAT regardless of what taxes have already been paid before under the previous Italian flag.
I seem to recall on this forum (or the lounge?) that some people had nasty surprises in Spain when their UK flagged boats had been in Spanish water for more than a certain period and had to pay Spanish VAT because they had 'imported' their boat from elsewhere.

If I remember rightly , the Spain problem was because people where living and working in Spain and their boat was kept in Spain for more then 180 days , in which case there was some kind of import tax to pay .

 

[Portofino]

Is there any reason the Gardia de Finanza would be less interested in a UK reg than a dutch one?
.

Well hopefully you won,t be pulled .For those that don,t know they have patrol boats .
They see the SSR no and red ensign and know it’s a gonna be a waste of time :encouragement:

How ever if you are - it strikes me that matching passports and and said ^^^ a matching “ name “ on the part 3 cert laminated fancy official looking - looks better than a Dutch flag an English guy and English passport * .with a local Italian Address !
If that Dutch doc has your IT address on , they tap it all in the lap top , you are now in there system **

* assuming passport is parents address U.K.
** assuming you not know to Gardia de Finanza

If they ask what you are doing , you are looking after it for the “ name “ - sibling / parents etc. - On Holiday etc .

As you said a lot of IT manage to reg other than Italy , I bet they don,t like that and will drill down if caught ?
Say a red ensign and a fluent local with a IT addressed passport living in Italy .Can,t see them letting that guy off .
I suspect an Italian citizen pass port holder living in Italy , working in Italy HAS to reg it in Italy .
Basically so they can record who paid what , to who , when etc as I said ^^^^.

After 5 years on a red , then when it’s time to reg it have a rethink .
As is said you will get a copy of the old blue book and a dereg cert from the port authority , to later prove its was vat paid .
If anybody asks post brexit — but I think you have all ready kicked VAT proof into the long grass buying from a private person in Italy - blue book proves it’s been paid .

 

[Portofino]

My point was that he is living in Italy and, presumably, will keep his boat there. Now if that boat is registered outside of the EU - as in post-Brexit - technically he would be importing it into the EU and would be (I think) liable to pay VAT regardless of what taxes have already been paid before under the previous Italian flag.
I seem to recall on this forum (or the lounge?) that some people had nasty surprises in Spain when their UK flagged boats had been in Spanish water for more than a certain period and had to pay Spanish VAT because they had 'imported' their boat from elsewhere.

From memory I thought that boat tax was introduced post 2008, economic crisis , it was not VAT or extra vat , it was a length tax for foreign boats ( U.K. ) kept in Spain .
It was repelled as the marinas emptied and associated marine business went bust faster than without the tax .

 

[macd]

My point was that he is living in Italy and, presumably, will keep his boat there. Now if that boat is registered outside of the EU - as in post-Brexit - technically he would be importing it into the EU and would be (I think) liable to pay VAT regardless of what taxes have already been paid before under the previous Italian flag.

You've perhaps missed the many occasions on which it's been explained that VAT liability has absolutely nothing to do with country of registration. It hinges most of all on the owner's country of residence (which in this case is Italy).

 

[Tranona]

My point was that he is living in Italy and, presumably, will keep his boat there. Now if that boat is registered outside of the EU - as in post-Brexit - technically he would be importing it into the EU and would be (I think) liable to pay VAT regardless of what taxes have already been paid before under the previous Italian flag.
I seem to recall on this forum (or the lounge?) that some people had nasty surprises in Spain when their UK flagged boats had been in Spanish water for more than a certain period and had to pay Spanish VAT because they had 'imported' their boat from elsewhere.

You misunderstand how it works. It is irrelevant what his nationality is or the registry of the boat. VAT is only payable if there is a chargeable event. On this boat that occurred when the leasing company transferred it to the first owner. The boat has always been in the EU and every change of ownership transaction has been between private citizens which are not chargeable events.

The Spanish situation is totally different. It is not VAT but an entirely separate Matriculation tax on all assets when a person becomes resident in Spain. Again the state of registry is irrelevant, it is the ownership that determines if the tax is payable.

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

I stand corrected and wish the OP well.

 

[BrianH]

On another subject , what all this about , that the buyer of a boat has to pay commission to the broker in Italy ?

This is, or was, the standard practice in Italy - both the buyer and seller pay a broker a similar percentage. This may have been because some buyers appoint their own broker for a broker-to-broker transaction, expecting them to protect their interests.

In 2005 I considered buying a boat in my Italian marina but was surprised to learn that, as buyer, I would be invoiced by the broker for a 4% commission on the purchase price agreed by the seller, who would also be invoiced by a similar percentage. This was apparently a standard yacht broker convention in Italy at that time. I made it clear that I would be prepared to offer a certain price, subject to contract, as a total of my cost, whatever way the broker and seller wished to break that down. This the broker refused, saying he would be prepared to drop his commission to me to 2%. In the event, the seller refused my offer.

Eventually I bought in Holland and placed my previous boat with a German broker, Schmidt & Partner, who had penetrated the previously impenetrable Italian professional cartel system (thanks to EU regulations) by opening a branch in the marina and introducing the northern European principle of seller only fees. Not only that, I chose a non-exclusive contract - at a higher percentage fee - and sold the boat myself through an on-line service, Boat24. Schmidt & Partner were quite happy with this once they knew the buyer was not one referred by them.

 

[gianenrico]

Gentlemen, just be advised that Italian Public Authorities can check, on a EU registered boat, only proof of registration, personal Identification Documents of Captain and Crew AND insurance for damages. STOP.
According to Montego Bay Convention, they could stop and search in high-seas ONLY if there are reasonable suspitions of slave, drug or arms trafficking.

You'd be amazed of the number of Belgian-Flagged boats sailing around Italy: all is perfectly legal, no tax is dodged, a lot of red tape is avoided (usual time for belgian registry is around one month in peak june/july).
We (yes, I'm one of the many!) opted Belgium because it is a formal registration by the Belgian Ministry.
Dutch "registration" is just a statement by a semi-private organization (guess kind of AAA) that the boat is in their registers. NO proof of possession.

 

[macd]

On another subject , what all this about , that the buyer of a boat has to pay commission to the broker in Italy ?

Sorry, Vic: just alerted to this by reading Barnacle's post.
For what it's worth, much the same applies to house purchases in Italy. Both seller and buyer pay an estate agent's fee. Sometimes it's the same agent dealing with both sides of the sale, sometimes two different ones. It can be interesting.

 

[Portofino]

Gentlemen, just be advised that Italian Public Authorities can check, on a EU registered boat, only personal Identification Documents of Captain and Crew AND insurance for damages. STOP.
According to Montego Bay Convention, they could stop and search in high-seas ONLY if there are reasonable suspitions of slave, drug or arms trafficking.

You'd be amazed of the number of Belgian-Flagged boats sailing around Italy: all is perfectly legal, no tax is dodged, a lot of red tape is avoided (usual time for belgian registry is around one month in peak june/july).
We (yes, I'm one of the many!) opted Belgium because it is a formal registration by the Belgian Ministry.
Dutch "registration" is just a statement by a semi-private organization (guess kind of AAA) that the boat is in their registers. NO proof of possession.

Do you have to record the amount paid in the application for the Belgium Flag ?
You don,t with U.K. btw for part 3 SSR .
The Italian port authority that deals with a sale of an Italian boat issues a temp note , signed by the seller .
Ok it might take a 2-3 month s for the registration of IT to IT citizen it “ irradiation “ ( dereg ) if IT to none IT .
The amount paid is recorded in the documentation.
Buts what’s the prob with an extra month or two , normal Italian bureaucracy .

Or is it you paid a large sum of €€€ , and don,t want that sum to get on the radar ?
Like hmm a take away Pizza shop guy paying € 500,000 for a boat — where did that come from when his tax returns show a profit of €6000 / year ? .
Of course there may be a perfectly legitimate explanation