Buy a Dutch steel boat in the Netherlands and flirt with the disaster...

First of all congratulations on a lovely looking boat.

The key here is understanding exactly who sold the boat. Initially you described it as a demonstrator. With 5 years and 250 hours under its keel I struggle to see how this could be considered a demonstrator. It is a second hand boat.

Demonstrators will generally be sold directly by the dealer and come with a warranty.

Before we get to drawn into who owned the boat and whether it was used privately or as part of their boat selling business how does the selling broker affect things? Possibly a question for JFM? Is it like a dealer putting a car through an auction, the auction rules over-ride any dealer obligations. You buy as per auction rules. Is it the same when a boat is sold by a broker, the onus is on you to carry out all your checks because there is no coverage under SOG rules?

How many hours has the boat done now?

From the outside it looks like several different people have looked at the issue with no one taking charge and doing diagnostic work. I don't just mean plugging in a machine I mean taking measurements, changing components and so on. Each person will blame someone else. As it stands now I'm not convinced you need new injectors, fuel pump and so on. Yes, the fault codes point to those items but I have a feeling there is another root cause. Were I a gambling man I would be thinking fuel starvation. Possibly something as simple as a blocked or non existent tank vent although there was a lot of work carried out to cure suspected contaminated fuel. Could this work have been flawed? Don't assume that the tanks are now clean and the fuel is good.

It could well be a fault stemming from construction errors but if the boat was sold as a second hand 5 year old vessel then I suspect you have inherited the problem. Is the builder still trading? Is it worth contacting them for help? Not with an emotive rant but a calm request. If they have done something wrong they might want to help. They may have another explanation, but we are playing a guessing game here because we still don't know all the facts. So many different people have been involved each doing their isolated bit.

If it was me I would engage the services of a knowledgable marine mechanic, ideally someone who is a John Deere agent. At the very least someone who has full access to all the data for the engine and test equipment to check actual performance of individual elements. Fuel flow, pressures and so on. It might be that tests have to be carried out under full load conditions. You may find someone suitable on this forum.

Once the problem is diagnosed then think about going back to people who have worked on the boat during the purchase. If they made mistakes try to get their costs refunded or some form of compensation if appropriate.

You are caught right in the middle of this and may not be able to see light at the end of the tunnel. Looking from the outside I suspect the root cause of your problems will actually be quite a simple fix when identified. It doesn't sound like an engine out problem.

You were given some excellent advice earlier on that if the boat was €8-10,000 more expensive you would still have bought it. It's a hell of good looking vessel with what looks to be a lovely fit out. Once cured I'm sure you will have many miles of enjoyment.

Henry :)
 
Last edited:
I would be inclined to stick a vacuum guage on the main fuel filter and a water in fuel alarm in the bowl .
Then run it up and watch these just before stall .

Go from there .
 
To Henry, Portofino and others!

Thank you very much indeed for your kind advices!
I will try today to ask again John Deere to do an effort and I will accept to pay a part of this new repair ( which was normally included in the repair list).
Yes the boat was sold by a professional company who had her in stock for few years , SHIP VISION.
The builder TINNEMANS has no archives about this boat! It is not like in England or in France ( I owned before a FISHER 37 built for me by Northshore Yachts in Itchenor ( fantastic boat yard). They had infos about the boat when I needed it, even far in Carribean. As well, Beneteau in France. Their dealers are responsive and the soft KATIA can tell you everything about a boat. In the Netherlands, we were in Maasbracht, different very small companies are working around a steel hull. Sometimes, this hull is moving from location to location, for example to be painted. Infortunately, TINNEMANS have not been helpful.May be a boat yard like Linssen would have been more efficient.
 
To Henry, Portofino and others!

Thank you very much indeed for your kind advices!
I will try today to ask again John Deere to do an effort and I will accept to pay a part of this new repair ( which was normally included in the repair list).
Yes the boat was sold by a professional company who had her in stock for few years , SHIP VISION.
The builder TINNEMANS has no archives about this boat! It is not like in England or in France ( I owned before a FISHER 37 built for me by Northshore Yachts in Itchenor ( fantastic boat yard). They had infos about the boat when I needed it, even far in Carribean. As well, Beneteau in France. Their dealers are responsive and the soft KATIA can tell you everything about a boat. In the Netherlands, we were in Maasbracht, different very small companies are working around a steel hull. Sometimes, this hull is moving from location to location, for example to be painted. Infortunately, TINNEMANS have not been helpful.May be a boat yard like Linssen would have been more efficient.
Balder, the key issue remains, did you buy the boat from a dealer, or a private individual. In the UK, if you buy from a dealer, then the dealer has a duty of care to ensure the boat is as specified and represented. If you bought from a private individual through a broker, there is no duty of care. It may be different in the Netherlands, but this is the basic question folk are asking. If you bought from a dealer, then the dealer should support the repairs, if he hid any information from you. Otherwise you are on your own, harsh though that may feel.
 
Just to simplify the question a bit more, I'm conscious that There may be language problems.

1. Who owned the boat?

2. Did you buy the boat directly from them or did you buy it through the brokers, Sleeuwijk Yachting ?

Henry :)

Edited to say that I can see TInnemans who look like a steel fabrication company so I suspect they probably didn't fit out the boat, just do the steelwork. I can also see Sleeuwijk Yachting the brokers. I can't find Ship Vision anywhere.
 
Last edited:
M, I don't think it's the payment that really matters here.
Regardless of whether there was a broker acting as a money collector or not, there must be a previous owner who invoiced the buyer - or signed a BoS as seller, if the sale wasn't meant to be invoiced, and THAT is the heart of the matter.
Coming to think of it, balder obviously must know whether the transaction was invoiced or not.
If yes, it still doesn't imply that the seller was a dealer, but if not, I'm afraid he can wave any consumer law protection goodbye...
...unless the seller was indeed a dealer and didn't issue an invoice, but that would be a fraud! :ambivalence:

I beg to differ but I may be wrong of course. If the boat was sold by a broker, the terms of the transaction will be as set out in the sale contract issued by the broker and presumably signed by the buyer. The seller's name will be stated on the Bill of Sale but AFAIK that is only a confirmation of change of title. On the other hand, if the seller has issued the buyer an invoice and payment has been made directly to the seller and the seller is selling in the name of a company, then possibly consumer laws in NL may apply to the transaction, particularly since Ship Vision are a firm of ship brokers and selling a pleasure yacht may be deemed a commercial trade

I guess jfm will be along in a minute to flame me!
 
Answer
1 who owned the boat: SHIP VISION ( professional broker, specialized in tug, workboats, small cargos etc more than leisure yachts)
2 I bought this yacht through SLEEUWIJK YACHTING ( professional broker)

I accept this morning do put 4000 more in the "slot machine" and NPS DIESEL is doing as well an effort ( 2000). They recommand me to ask broker for the difference!
Worse than buy a carpet in a Souk at Tangier or Monastir.....
ps : do you know how post pictures here?
 
ps : do you know how post pictures here?

Yes.

First of all upload the image to something like Photobucket You can set up a free account.

View the image on your Photobucket library and copy the "direct link" text under "Share this photo"

photobucket_zpsg5rcnhcw.jpg


It will look something like this:

http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af140/CEO-H/Girl%201_zpszlb92f6p.jpg

Paste that text within [img] [/img] so it looks something like this [img]http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af140/CEO-H/Girl%201_zpszlb92f6p.jpg[/img]

You will then see your image in the thread:

Girl%201_zpszlb92f6p.jpg


It seems a bit fiddly at first but you soon get used to it. Just make sure you get the [img] [/img] bits right.

Henry :)
 
Last edited:
Answer
1 who owned the boat: SHIP VISION ( professional broker, specialized in tug, workboats, small cargos etc more than leisure yachts)
2 I bought this yacht through SLEEUWIJK YACHTING ( professional broker)

I accept this morning do put 4000 more in the "slot machine" and NPS DIESEL is doing as well an effort ( 2000). They recommand me to ask broker for the difference!
Worse than buy a carpet in a Souk at Tangier or Monastir.....
ps : do you know how post pictures here?

Seems a lot of money.

From the error codes all that seems to be wrong is that you still have crud in the fuel lines and a wire for the second throttle (which you may not even have) is probably dangling somewhere.

Normally you should be able to read out all the error codes yourself by pushing the right buttons.
 
Yes.

First of all upload the image to something like Photobucket You can set up a free account.

View the image on your Photobucket library and copy the "direct link" text under "Share this photo"

photobucket_zpsg5rcnhcw.jpg


It will look something like this:

http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af140/CEO-H/Girl%201_zpszlb92f6p.jpg

Paste that text within [img] [/img] so it looks something like this [img]http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af140/CEO-H/Girl%201_zpszlb92f6p.jpg[/img]

You will then see your image in the thread:

Girl%201_zpszlb92f6p.jpg


It seems a bit fiddly at first but you soon get used to it. Just make sure you get the [img] [/img] bits right.

Henry :)

Doesn't copying the link in the box IMG and pasting do the same thing? or have I been doing it wrong?
 
Answer
1 who owned the boat: SHIP VISION ( professional broker, specialized in tug, workboats, small cargos etc more than leisure yachts)
2 I bought this yacht through SLEEUWIJK YACHTING ( professional broker)

Ok, that clears things up a lot.

I suspect that legally you are on your own as you bought it through a broker. In the UK when you buy through a broker you must do all your surveys and sea trials before handing over your money because once you have handed over the cash you own the boat and all its problems. It doesn't matter if the person selling it was a dealer or not. JFM will hopefully be along at some point, he is the definitive answer to situations like but my understanding is that neither the broker nor the original owner has any future liability once the boat is paid for in full because you bought from the Sleeuwijk not Ship Vision.

I accept that in your case things got a bit messy and you were told by NPS Diesel that everything was ok when potentially it wasn't. That isn't the broker's problem or the original owner's problem legally. You accepted the boat based on what NPS told you and the deal was concluded. Unfortunately it seems NPS might have been wrong to suggest the fault was fully resolved. My best guess is that NPS are potentially liable but it is just a guess. Ultimately it was your responsibility to have the boat tested to confirm and issues were resolved. You could also have asked for a financial retainer (money to be held back) until everyone was sure the problems were resolved. How many hours does the boat have on her now ?

Henry :)
 
Doesn't copying the link in the box IMG and pasting do the same thing? or have I been doing it wrong?

Yes it does. A bit messy in the coding though !

I was trying to reply in a way which made sense of the [img] [/img] instruction. From there you could start using [url] [/url] etc, although I accept that the forum platform automatically converts web addresses. This isn't my day job so I bow to superior IT ability :)

H.
 
I suspect that legally you are on your own as you bought it through a broker. In the UK when you buy through a broker you must do all your surveys and sea trials before handing over your money because once you have handed over the cash you own the boat and all its problems. It doesn't matter if the person selling it was a dealer or not.
Well, if that's correct, balder can forget what I said in my post #19 and consider Deleted User reply in his post #26 instead.

I can't for the life of me think of any reason for changing the nature of the transaction and the corresponding liabilities depending on whether a broker (as long as he NEVER got the ownership of what is being sold at any stage, of course) was involved or not, but if that's how it works in the UK, hey-ho! :)
It remains to be seen whether NL jurisdiction is the same, though.
 
Ok, that clears things up a lot.

I suspect that legally you are on your own as you bought it through a broker. In the UK when you buy through a broker you must do all your surveys and sea trials before handing over your money because once you have handed over the cash you own the boat and all its problems. It doesn't matter if the person selling it was a dealer or not. JFM will hopefully be along at some point, he is the definitive answer to situations like but my understanding is that neither the broker nor the original owner has any future liability once the boat is paid for in full because you bought from the Sleeuwijk not Ship Vision.

I accept that in your case things got a bit messy and you were told by NPS Diesel that everything was ok when potentially it wasn't. That isn't the broker's problem or the original owner's problem legally. You accepted the boat based on what NPS told you and the deal was concluded. Unfortunately it seems NPS might have been wrong to suggest the fault was fully resolved. My best guess is that NPS are potentially liable but it is just a guess. Ultimately it was your responsibility to have the boat tested to confirm and issues were resolved. You could also have asked for a financial retainer (money to be held back) until everyone was sure the problems were resolved. How many hours does the boat have on her now ?

Henry :)

Agreed except about NPS' liability. They will claim that the initial error codes were caused by the fuel contamination issue and they were employed to clean up the fuel contamination issue and therefore their warranty is limited to the work they did doing that. Whilst it may look suspicious, there's no way that anyone can be 100% sure that the same error codes occuring several weeks later were caused by any mistake on their part. Having said that, there is obviously a strong case for goodwill and I see that the OP seems to have made some headway on that
 
NPS is not John Deere just their distributor, you need to go direct to John Deere in the U.S. and explain exactly how their Dutch distributor is performing.

I thought Barrus were at best poor at supporting Deere but NPS on the basis of a one sided story sound worse.
 
Agreed except about NPS' liability. They will claim that the initial error codes were caused by the fuel contamination issue and they were employed to clean up the fuel contamination issue and therefore their warranty is limited to the work they did doing that. Whilst it may look suspicious, there's no way that anyone can be 100% sure that the same error codes occuring several weeks later were caused by any mistake on their part. Having said that, there is obviously a strong case for goodwill and I see that the OP seems to have made some headway on that

If NPS signed off the installation as Deere in territory distributor and it was not to engine manufacturer guidelines and they failed to spot the bodge carried out by their own service dealer then I believe it their responsibility that fuel system faults were encountered.
 
If NPS signed off the installation as Deere in territory distributor and it was not to engine manufacturer guidelines and they failed to spot the bodge carried out by their own service dealer then I believe it their responsibility that fuel system faults were encountered.

I don't believe there was any suggestion that NPS were involved in the original engine installation. They got involved when issues were discovered during the buying process.

Henry :)
 
Yes Henry, NPS has not been involded in the original engine installation. They can not be responsible for a wrong initial fitting.
As i explained, this is a demo boat not delivered from 2008 - 2010, hardly used with very low engines hours. This is the reason why I was of course suspicious and took care of a very good survey at the beginning during the first sea trials. Like a new boat, we have to use more or less during one year to discover small or big problems and failures.Considering the diesel bug, we were waiting for honest response concerning repairs done or to be done again. As commented here, my mistake was to do not ask to my french surveyor to come back again from the south of France in the Netherlands to verifiy with me the repairs. I am quite sure that the broker trusted also the explanations given by the NPS mechanic. He had hand free to order repairs because, the seller - SHIP VISION - wanted to sell the boat as soon as possible. Of course, on a long range trawler, like with a small dinghy, engine running properly is crucial. It is the reason why so many sailors are hesitating to go "on the dark side". I expected less electronic also on the John deere - I was familiar with my twin 6 LYA STP Yanmar, basic but reliable.
NPS France explained me that many sensors and electronic systems can be adjusted to prevent engine shutdown,etc . NPS promised me to do that when they will come aboard to do the work.
By the way, many thanks again for all these replies and comments. I think young future brokers should study most of these contributions.
 
Very nice picture, I am not sure some pictures I could post of North sea Trawler 57 BALDER VIII will be as pleasant. If I print it as a poster and send it to NPS, do you think I will obtain another discount?

You could try :) I took it a couple of weeks ago whilst helping out at the Singapore boat show.

So it was diesel bug initially which caused the problem. At least that means the original installation isn't necessarily wrong. As I understand it getting rid of the bug can be hard. I presume you are aware of chemical treatments available.

There is no point in changing expensive parts if they are only going to be contaminated again. Are we absolutely sure the parts need changing rather than cleaning and flushing through? To be fair to NPS if it is diesel bug then things might have been fine when they finished but more solids have come through the fuel system in the past 6 months. The bug could still be growing ?

Could you fit a fuel polishing system and use one of the tanks as a day tank knowing fuel in there is perfect?

Henry :)
 
Last edited:
Top