Buy a Dutch steel boat in the Netherlands and flirt with the disaster...

[Latestarter1]

Yes Henry, NPS has not been involded in the original engine installation. They can not be responsible for a wrong initial fitting.
As i explained, this is a demo boat not delivered from 2008 - 2010, hardly used with very low engines hours. This is the reason why I was of course suspicious and took care of a very good survey at the beginning during the first sea trials. Like a new boat, we have to use more or less during one year to discover small or big problems and failures.Considering the diesel bug, we were waiting for honest response concerning repairs done or to be done again. As commented here, my mistake was to do not ask to my french surveyor to come back again from the south of France in the Netherlands to verifiy with me the repairs. I am quite sure that the broker trusted also the explanations given by the NPS mechanic. He had hand free to order repairs because, the seller - SHIP VISION - wanted to sell the boat as soon as possible. Of course, on a long range trawler, like with a small dinghy, engine running properly is crucial. It is the reason why so many sailors are hesitating to go "on the dark side". I expected less electronic also on the John deere - I was familiar with my twin 6 LYA STP Yanmar, basic but reliable.
NPS France explained me that many sensors and electronic systems can be adjusted to prevent engine shutdown,etc . NPS promised me to do that when they will come aboard to do the work.
By the way, many thanks again for all these replies and comments. I think young future brokers should study most of these contributions.

Sorry Balder but I am getting grumpy now, IF NPS did not carry out the installation sign off they do know which dealer did therefore they are in a position to tell you which one of their own dealers DID and they will have a copy in their files as it activated engine warranty!.

Your Deere motors twice that of Yanmar LY's whose reputation tarnished forever massive screw up at Hinkley Yachts.

 

[jfm]

There is quite a lot of mixing up on the legals.
Balder says Ship vision was seller; Sleeuwijk was broker
The insertion of broker doesn't relieve seller of liabilities under consumer law. So if Ship vision was making a retail sale (ie were not broker for someone else) and were selling B2C, then Balder has whatever protection Dutch consumer law gives him. The payment mechanics will be irrelevant, as will Sleeuwijk

I don't know what exact rights Dutch consumer gives in a B2C but I guess they will be similar to other countries and therefore Ship Vision are obliged to do or pay for a repair, if boat is returned to them (which is difficult of course)

Balder should document the facts and claim from Ship Vision

Remember, it seems (not that we have every relevant fact) that NPS owe no duty to Balder. He has no contract with them, it seems. So Balder is misconceived in refusing to pay just because NPS did a bad job. his complaint is against Ship Vision not NPS

Latestarter explains well how to deal with the engine but of course those actions might under Dutch law amount to acceptance of the boat and at the very least they will complicate any claim against Ship Vision. That claim could be fatally complex in any case of course

I'd file the claim vs Ship vision, press for early reply, and if they say no THEN and only then do the repairs thru Deere agent and make a financial not consumer goods claim against Ship Vision. You can do a financial claim at your leisure, so it doesn't delay getting the boat sea worthy, which seems to me to be an important priority

 

[MapisM]

The insertion of broker doesn't relieve seller of liabilities under consumer law
...
The payment mechanics will be irrelevant

Phew.
In principle, I always tend to accept whatever native folks tell me about UK regulations, and I will continue to do so also in the future, for very obvious reasons.
Nonetheless, it's nice to hear that the basic economic principles I learned 30+ years ago are still valid also north of the Channel...
...with apologies to balder for the small o/t.

 

[henryf]

The only slight complication JFM, and it's an ever changing playing field as the story unfolds, is that I don't know if Ship Vision were selling the boat as part of their business. Given they apparently sell commercial vessels could it be this was the owner's toy?

I still think there is a fuel contamination issue present. 8,000 litre tanks, old fuel - how much diesel can that JD engine burn in 250 hours, potentially some of the stuff in there could have been getting on for 5 years old!

Possibly slightly off topic but how is it then that a car dealer selling a car through auction hides behind the auction T's&Cs but a boat dealer can't hide behind the broker's equally watertight buying process?

Henry

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Phew.
In principle, I always tend to accept whatever native folks tell me about UK regulations, and I will continue to do so also in the future, for very obvious reasons.
Nonetheless, it's nice to hear that the basic economic principles I learned 30+ years ago are still valid also north of the Channel...
...with apologies to balder for the small o/t.

I'm not sure it as clear cut as that. The OP would have to prove that the Ship Vision was selling the boat in the course of its business and the fact that it sold the boat through a broker may suggest that it could claim it was not and we don't actually know for sure yet whether it was the owner of Ship Vision who sold the boat or the company itself. In fact the RYA specifically refers in its explanation notes to its model brokerage sale agreement to a 'regular trader in boats'. Could Ship Vision be considered a regular trader in boats? We don't know. Was the boat an asset of the business? We don't know

 

[jfm]

I'm not sure it as clear cut as that. The OP would have to prove that the Ship Vision was selling the boat in the course of its business and the fact that it sold the boat through a broker may suggest that it could claim it was not and we don't actually know for sure yet whether it was the owner of Ship Vision who sold the boat or the company itself. In fact the RYA specifically refers in its explanation notes to its model brokerage sale agreement to a 'regular trader in boats'. Could Ship Vision be considered a regular trader in boats? We don't know. Was the boat an asset of the business? We don't know

The principle is clear cut but I agree the facts/story surent rock solid which is why I said IF it was a retail sale. Rya is hardly an authoritative source on this. They're pretty inaccurate in using the term "regular" because the law says nothing of "regular" but they have non sharp end lawyers and are inclined to dumb down.

 

[MapisM]

the fact that it sold the boat through a broker may suggest...

I wholeheartedly agree on "may suggest", M - just see the second part of my post #19.

What puzzled me was your question about who got the payment, to start with.
But eventually, I conceded (not without being astonished, I hasten to add) that UK must treat the matter differently from what I thought when H said that "In the UK when you buy through a broker (....) It doesn't matter if the person selling it was a dealer or not".
Now, as I understand from what jfm said, the principle I had in mind (neither the payment nor the broker IMPLY anything, regardless of what they might SUGGEST) still stands, which brings back my view of UK rules on this matter within the boundaries of reason....

 

[Latestarter1]

Too grumpy last night with what the OP was telling us to be entirely rational, my apologies.

Let me clarify, there is no point in trying to correct the current engine fuel system faults they will almost certainly reappear as the installation is clearly defective evidenced by installation of a lift pump by the Deere lawnmower dealer. The legal finger pointing is secondary to getting the engine installation fit for purpose and the engine running free of re-occurring fuel system faults has to be the primary objective.

The system works as follows........

NPS are the John Deere in territory distributor.

Unless engines were imported they would have been purchased from NPS.

As purchased engine warranty would be inactive.

Once installed in a manner complying with Deere published installation guidelines in order to activate John Deere warranty and get engines on their database whoever owns the engines at the time, yard, owner etc pays a fee to either the distributor or to one of their nominated dealers authorised to carry out a new engine installation survey and sea trial.

New engine installation sign off is the only way an engine manufacturer can ensure that their motor is being operated within its design perimeters.

Whether or not NPS carried out the installation sign off is immaterial their authorised dealer will have sent the sign off documentation which in itself is a comprehensive document which may list recommendations to improve the installation to outright rejection of features of the installation requiring mandatory changes.

If and only if any mandatory changes are rectified this document is sent to the distributor (NPS in this case) which they file online which results in the activation of the engine manufacturers warranty which becomes live from the date of successful sign off.

Whoever pays for installation sign off receives a copy this important document and the engine manufacturers distributor retains a copy of this document. For example if any changes are made to the installation during the warranty period effecting the engine operating envelope the existence of this document may assist in determining if failure is warrantable. Outside warranty if a failure occurs which results in a claim under policy this document can also be referred to. IF engine was signed off NPS will have this document.

A decent surveyor of a recently completed vessel or a re-power will often demand this document as it often carries a list of advised changes to improve the installation.

It is just possible that installation was never signed off, however if you paid NPS to review the faults on the engine they would be subject to serious sanction by the manufacturer if this was not brought to your attention.

Sufficient information for OP to start a meaningful dialogue with NPS and Deere regional office.

 

[MapisM]

That's indeed an interesting insight on validation procedures for engine installations P, many thanks.

Just one question, which is actually addressed to anyone - and mostly to serial new boat buyers )), re. this point:

Whoever pays for installation sign off receives a copy this important document

Do you folks have ever seen (and received, together with the boat) a copy of this warranty activation doc?
I've only bought a couple of new boats (without getting it), but I've also seen all the papers of several others newly purchased boats, and I can't remember that...

 

[Latestarter1]

That's indeed an interesting insight on validation procedures for engine installations P, many thanks.

Just one question, which is actually addressed to anyone - and mostly to serial new boat buyers )), re. this point:

Do you folks have ever seen (and received, together with the boat) a copy of this warranty activation doc?
I've only bought a couple of new boats (without getting it), but I've also seen all the papers of several others newly purchased boats, and I can't remember that...

In many cases yards or owners are not that proud about engine manufacturers commissioning agents recommendations.

I investigated a case a couple of years ago for a forum member where I discovered that the engine installation carried out by a yard on the South Coast was so inept that the commissioning engineer refused to take the vessel on sea. Nothing further was ever done..........

 

[henryf]

I'm not convinced the lift pump is evidence of an incorrect instal.

If diesel bug debris was restricting fuel flow to the engine the lift pump may have been installed to try and compensate. Wasn't the pump subsequently removed?

The boat managed to do 250 hours prior to the purchase presumably quite happily.

Henry

 

[Latestarter1]

I'm not convinced the lift pump is evidence of an incorrect instal.

If diesel bug debris was restricting fuel flow to the engine the lift pump may have been installed to try and compensate. Wasn't the pump subsequently removed?

The boat managed to do 250 hours prior to the purchase presumably quite happily.

Henry

We know too little however one thing is for sure, the fact that any common rail engine is being brought to its knees with resulting expensive damage to fuel system components is a certain sign of a filtration which is not fit for purpose.

The fact that the lift pump was fitted in the first place indicates that there were fuel restriction issues and filters changed to Separ units with no WIF sensors all smacks of the bodge monkeys at work.

Failure analysis from this distance is strictly for armchair engineers...........

Any conjecture as to

 

[henryf]

As you rightly point out without all the facts we are merely guessing.

I think that too many people have been involved and 1 company needs to start again from the beginning looking at all the elements. Frustratingly I don't actually think this is going to be a hard one to resolve once the right team get involved.

I don't know the ramifications of debris getting into a JD fuel system. What can be cleaned, what needs replacing and so on. At least everything is bolt on / bolt off and the engine won't need removing. My hope is that by reading comments posted on here Balder is able to better understand what needs to be done, get a perspective on the situation, possibly seek financial compensation and then get on with enjoying his lovely boat.

I don't see anything inherently wrong with the choice of motor, so it's not re-engine time just yet

Henry

 

[Latestarter1]

As you rightly point out without all the facts we are merely guessing.

I think that too many people have been involved and 1 company needs to start again from the beginning looking at all the elements. Frustratingly I don't actually think this is going to be a hard one to resolve once the right team get involved.

I don't know the ramifications of debris getting into a JD fuel system. What can be cleaned, what needs replacing and so on. At least everything is bolt on / bolt off and the engine won't need removing. My hope is that by reading comments posted on here Balder is able to better understand what needs to be done, get a perspective on the situation, possibly seek financial compensation and then get on with enjoying his lovely boat.

I don't see anything inherently wrong with the choice of motor, so it's not re-engine time just yet

Henry

Nothing wrong with engine and Denso common rail is excellent robust system, far superior than Delphi system Deere used to employ, however just working in a hostile environment.

 

[balder]

Hello,

To provide some exact informations, the small lift pump has been added after the first survey. From what I understood, it sounds to be mostly done on tractors for farmers or trucks with John deere engines.
I told my surprise both SLEEUWIJK YACHTING and SHIP VISION that the security at sea of this ocean going vessel depends on this small lift pump to provide enough diesel to the filters ( it was fitted after the prefilters) with a ridiculous fuse and a wire running alongside the engine!
When I told that to the french NPS office in Nantes, they immediatly recommand to do not keep it. Whaterver is the location of tanks aboard, engine should suck enough gallons of diesel to run properly. Question ( always the same): why did the mechanic say nothing about that when it did the control and diagnostic?
But now, I hope it will be an ended story: we expect to be back to Jersey, St Helier first, Brest, La Corogne, Lisboa, and Gibraltar, further may be a passage to Canary Islands.
I must try to post some pictures of this interesting boat. All the Robert Beebe s' "gimmicks" have been mixed in the design: keypower stabs with gyro and GPS connection, bulbous bow ( I am curious how this will be efficient in bad weather), low profile superstructure ( different from Nordhavn design height), keel cooling with dry stack, fuel polishing system ( already fitted with a Gulf Coast filter), Key power aux prop drive connected to Lugger 16 Kw diesel generator.
12 and 13 of may, NPS french mechanic will come aboard. I expect to learn more about this failure!

 

[henryf]

Nothing wrong with engine and Denso common rail is excellent robust system, far superior than Delphi system Deere used to employ, however just working in a hostile environment.

So if bug / debris has made it inside will it be necessary to replace everything or can you clean it all out ?

Henry

 

[Latestarter1]

So if bug / debris has made it inside will it be necessary to replace everything or can you clean it all out ?

Henry

Not the bug, they have probably clogged the primary filters however we have no clue regarding micron rating or agglomeration properties, we no longer have any WIF sensors and it is water which wrecks common rail fuel systems, Denso injectors are marginally more tolerant than Bosch which will last as long as a mayfly in spring with merely a hint of water contamination. Pump is unlikely to be effected terminally but rail pressure sensor may have had it, all depend on the degree of contamination.

I do worry that considering what has been done somebody may have changed the 'last chance' filter which MUST be maximum of 2 Microns.

Ho hum we will see, does not seem like the OP does a lot of listening...........

 

[balder]

Not the bug, they have probably clogged the primary filters however we have no clue regarding micron rating or agglomeration properties, we no longer have any WIF sensors and it is water which wrecks common rail fuel systems, Denso injectors are marginally more tolerant than Bosch which will last as long as a mayfly in spring with merely a hint of water contamination. Pump is unlikely to be effected terminally but rail pressure sensor may have had it, all depend on the degree of contamination.

I do worry that considering what has been done somebody may have changed the 'last chance' filter which MUST be maximum of 2 Microns.

Ho hum we will see, does not seem like the OP does a lot of listening...........

Oh yes I am listening and trying to understand all these technical information. Mid of May, I will know more about the damages.
One more time, many thanks your comments.

 

[Latestarter1]

Oh gawd I looked up Gulf Coast Filters, no wonder I had never heard of them, big on words but squat all proper data. Claim to be .5 Micron which is TOTALLY unsuited for pre filtration anything like that level will clog in a trice and as far as I can see these filters have no true agglomeration capacity, just bog rolls in a tin can.

These filters are a totally useless con. I am now starting to suspect that this engine has never been subject to manufacturers installation sign off, if a numpty engineer has signed off on this then I am sure Deere application engineering would never approve this stuff. No wonder the sticking plaster lift pump was tried.

People running around addressing the problem not the cause. As I have said before Barrus do not impress me but NPS look to me as simply inept! Good engine with absolutely crummy support.

Yes I know we now have Separ filters but what spec? Anyway much of the damage had already been done.

 

[TwoHooter]

Oh gawd I looked up Gulf Coast Filters, no wonder I had never heard of them, big on words but squat all proper data. Claim to be .5 Micron which is TOTALLY unsuited for pre filtration anything like that level will clog in a trice and as far as I can see these filters have no true agglomeration capacity, just bog rolls in a tin can.
These filters are a totally useless con. I am now starting to suspect that this engine has never been subject to manufacturers installation sign off, if a numpty engineer has signed off on this then I am sure Deere application engineering would never approve this stuff. No wonder the sticking plaster lift pump was tried.
People running around addressing the problem not the cause. As I have said before Barrus do not impress me but NPS look to me as simply inept! Good engine with absolutely crummy support.
Yes I know we now have Separ filters but what spec? Anyway much of the damage had already been done.

I am wondering:
-Did the filters which were fitted to the boat have water separation? And what about the new filters?
-What is the filtration specification of the new primary fuel filters (ie: how many microns)?
FWIW the recommendation for the John Deere/Lugger engines fitted to Nordhavns is (a) pre-filtration 30 microns and (b) engine filters as specified for the particular engine (usually 2 microns for common-rail).

I noticed this: 'The builder TINNEMANS has no archives about this boat.' I find that quite frightening.

I'm beginning to get a feeling about the situation. Like Latestarter, I wonder if any of the systems were ever signed off by anyone. I can't resist drawing the contrast - when we bought our ten year old Nordhavn we not only got the very detailed Owner's Manual including a set of drawings and schematics and the back-up of the Owners' Group (which includes almost instantaneous support from specialists at all the main systems providers) but the builders can supply detailed information about every boat they have ever built. We had a query about our rudder last week and within 48 hours I had received a copy of the detailed construction drawing.

If I was Balder I would get a specialist to do a full inspection (not just an ordinary boat survey) and report, including all the systems on the boat. There are people with experience of this sort of thing who would do a very thorough job.