Buy a Dutch steel boat in the Netherlands and flirt with the disaster...

[balder]

Purchasers of serious ocean going steel boat built in The Netherlands and equiped with reliable ( ?) John Deere engine, beware!
Or pray God!
We bought last august in Sleeuwijck, a demo boat, 57' feet, CAT A trawler. As experienced owners, ex sailor, we ask to our french surveyor to come with us and visit the boat sold by a professional owner, also broker SHIP VISION ( vision of nightmare???). Boat was more or less in normal condition but engine had serious problems and stalled several times during trial. The broker, Sleeuwijk Yachting recommanded as our surveyor to do the repairs, including cleaning tanks ( 8300 Liters), change some pipes and asked to John deere representative agent - NPS DIESEL - to come aboard to validate the repairs and confirm everything was fixed. NPS DIESEL checked and controlled the engine with a computer, did a diagnostic and answered: don't worry, be happy, everything is fine, go ahead offshore!!! We, stupid french "pigeons" approved the boat and sent the with final payment.
Last but not least, few weeks later, we were obliged to stop our cruise from the Netherlands to Jersey with a new engine 's failure.
We discovered in january what was mentioned in the NPS DIESEL "diag" as they say: some serious error codes concerning injection system, etc...
Now this yacht is stuck in the marina. the Dutch "team" refuse now to fix these issues ( they have also an office in France), or they accept if we pay more or less 8000 to 15000 EUR ( injection pump, 6 injectors, rail pressure system)...

To be honest, I missed the twin YANMARS fitted on my Beneteau Swift Trawler. During 10 years, we filled our tanks in Tunisia, italy or Malta, never a problem.

Now we are ready to institute proceedings against this Dutch "team". From a moral point of view, and as ex crew on french lifeboats, I cannot understand how professional brokers and mechanics may act like this!
Moral of this story: never trust the "blah blah" about "heavy duty, reliable engines, always think twice with YOUR surveor and try to prefer buy you new boat in another country...

Dominique
BALDER VIII
( stuck in Port Guillaume, will welcome Brits visitors yachts aboard his trawler , pardon me, his floating caravan...)

 

[gjgm]

I am not clear.. are you saying that NPS withheld the true diagnostic report from you, or you/someone did not read the full report?
I think you also need to clarify what this actually means:

some serious error codes concerning injection system, etc...

I suppose having some serious codes is not necessarily the same as having some serious issues, but NPS need to explain that.
Sympathy with the breakdown etc, but I am not clear where the blame (if any) might be.

 

[balder]

"are you saying that NPS withheld the true diagnostic report from you, or you/someone did not read the full report?"

Both, I am afraid. Broker received instructions from seller to do all repairs required by the condition of the engine ( it is the first time of my life I saw a 50 years old guy coming inside a a tank with no mask to protect his face and clean with water pressure! Outside , another guy works with a pump to suck the dirty bacterias.

Yes, there is a blame. Considering this contamination, NPS DIESEL should have investigate more and ask permission to broker and seller to test injection pump and injectors. The mechanic didn't. It is a fault. As well, in english, I assured me that the engine was 100% ok.
The seller would have accepted to pay these repair.

Considering the second failure with same error codes than in the diagnostic, they occured when the engine stopped again few weeks later.

In US, trawler' owners seem happy with John Deere fitted on Nordhavn or Selene...but they have may be a better after sale service! Of course contamination is a contamination and all engines will suffer damages from this.

 

[Outforaduck]

I sail my Dutch steel 'trawler' demo Cat A boat home to England next month. I'm really excited. I'm sorry your experience has been challenging.
In a world of 'buyer beware' I've tried to protect myself as best I could with a great English surveyor and a solid solicitor. I have scrutinised every line of the agreement. By god I've wound up the Dutch, but what the heck, I know the day I leave Dutch waters with the final escro protected euros paid over to the seller - I'm on my own.
The time for holding broker's and seller's feet to the fire is before the money is passed over not after. Saying that I hope you find satisfaction and my boat makes it back here with breaking down!

 

[jfm]

Sorry to hear about this.
John Deere is normally good (my bother has 2. Model 6068, iirc) but no injectors/fuel systems will love dirty fuel/water/whatever

Beyond that it is hard to comment. I don't understand the significance of "January" in your post. I don't know what the terms of your contract are. You might have consumer law protection in NL but there isn't enough detail in your post, but you say the seller was "professional" and if you are consumer then you do have some protection. It sounds like all these people involved (the John Deere agent NPS, etc) were hired by seller or broker so have no duty of care to you (it seems). Your surveyor might owe you a duty of care regarding the engines, but there isn't enough info in your post. Otherwise it is caveat emptor I'm afraid. I hope it can be fixed asap

 

[MapisM]

Purchasers of serious ocean going steel boat built in The Netherlands and equiped with reliable (?) John Deere engine, beware!

I'm sorry to hear of your troubles, but don't you think it's a bit harsh to tar all NL builders and JD engines with the same brush?
I can't think of one single reason why you couldn't have had the same experience in France, with an Ocea vessel equipped with Badouin engines...
...and mind, I'm purposedly using an outstanding builder as an example, just to say that even in that case it wouldn't have been fair to warn everybody against French builders and engines.
That said, all the very best for a positive outcome! :encouragement:

 

[henryf]

A somewhat misleading title. The fact your boat is Dutch has little if anything to do with things from what you write.

It sounds like the boat and engine has suffered from contaminated fuel, be that water, diesel bug or some other substance. The exact course of events isn't clear from your post but you do mention someone cleaning the main tank which implies contamination.

I would be surprised if the tank was cleaned with water, I thought they used diesel to clean tanks.

Ultimately it sounds like you purchased the boat through a broker. If that is the case you must remember that the broker is working entirely for the seller. They will be nice to you and do whatever it takes to push the sale through but ultimately they are working for the seller and once the sale concludes you are on your own. There is no guarantee. You are expected to carry out a thorough survey and sea trial, deduct money for any faults found or demand that they are corrected, re-survey to ensure everything is ok and purchase the boat. You are then on your own. If someone you have employed makes a mistake you can potentially sue them but the broker is generally safe.

Things are very different if you buy a dealer owned stock boat, you generally have protection for a period of time afterwards under sale of goods rules. Initially it is up to the dealer to prove the faults weren't present at the time of sale, as time passes the onus falls on you to prove they were present at the time of sale. A good dealer would also want to protect their reputation. Brokers have no reputation to protect, they merely offer third party boats for sale and shouldn't make any judgement on their condition. If they do they open themselves up to miss-representation claims although they will try to hide behind your survey and lots of small print in their contracts and advertising material.

Can I make a suggestion?

Say exactly what's wrong with the boat without pointing fingers or blaming people and use the knowledge on here to find a solution.

Seperately say the course of events which led up to the problems in a clear and unemotional post. If anyone is liable then brains like JFM's will surely tell you but the devil is in the detail. You need to state exactly what happened backed up by fact, not what you think or want to have happened.

Sorry if my post comes across as a bit harsh and matter of fact. I'm not very good at sugar coating things I just see problems and solutions, but there is a genuine desire to help.

Henry

 

[Latestarter1]

Purchasers of serious ocean going steel boat built in The Netherlands and equiped with reliable ( ?) John Deere engine, beware!
Or pray God!
We bought last august in Sleeuwijck, a demo boat, 57' feet, CAT A trawler. As experienced owners, ex sailor, we ask to our french surveyor to come with us and visit the boat sold by a professional owner, also broker SHIP VISION ( vision of nightmare???). Boat was more or less in normal condition but engine had serious problems and stalled several times during trial. The broker, Sleeuwijk Yachting recommanded as our surveyor to do the repairs, including cleaning tanks ( 8300 Liters), change some pipes and asked to John deere representative agent - NPS DIESEL - to come aboard to validate the repairs and confirm everything was fixed. NPS DIESEL checked and controlled the engine with a computer, did a diagnostic and answered: don't worry, be happy, everything is fine, go ahead offshore!!! We, stupid french "pigeons" approved the boat and sent the with final payment.
Last but not least, few weeks later, we were obliged to stop our cruise from the Netherlands to Jersey with a new engine 's failure.
We discovered in january what was mentioned in the NPS DIESEL "diag" as they say: some serious error codes concerning injection system, etc...
Now this yacht is stuck in the marina. the Dutch "team" refuse now to fix these issues ( they have also an office in France), or they accept if we pay more or less 8000 to 15000 EUR ( injection pump, 6 injectors, rail pressure system)...

To be honest, I missed the twin YANMARS fitted on my Beneteau Swift Trawler. During 10 years, we filled our tanks in Tunisia, italy or Malta, never a problem.

Now we are ready to institute proceedings against this Dutch "team". From a moral point of view, and as ex crew on french lifeboats, I cannot understand how professional brokers and mechanics may act like this!
Moral of this story: never trust the "blah blah" about "heavy duty, reliable engines, always think twice with YOUR surveor and try to prefer buy you new boat in another country...

Dominique
BALDER VIII
( stuck in Port Guillaume, will welcome Brits visitors yachts aboard his trawler , pardon me, his floating caravan...)

Can we have a few more FACTS please.

Exactly what model of Deere motor and how old?

John Deere 'Service Advisor' electronic tooling will have opened a job sheet for the original engine survey/diagnostic check, if you paid for it that electronic job sheet is your property.

I will eat my car if pump, injectors and other fuel system components have all failed, Denso fuel system used by Deere is one of the most robust particularly the design of the injectors which is particularly nice.

Once again IF Service Adavisor has been hooked up it will list the failed components as well as the SRT (Standard Repair Time) to fix, technicians in Europe are not always keen to share this information as it rather restricts their profit opportunity.

Please let us have some more facts.

 

[jfm]

Henry, it's not very clear but op says it is a demo boat sold by a professional seller. I think, but I'm not sure, op means a non private seller. (Admittedly I don't see why there is a broker!). That might mean op has rights as a retail buyer.
No hard facts though. Ditto as to the engine failure.

 

[MapisM]

Once again IF Service Adavisor has been hooked up it will list the failed components as well as the SRT (Standard Repair Time) to fix, technicians in Europe are not always keen to share this information as it rather restricts their profit opportunity.

That's a very valuable suggestion, in the OP boots I would be grateful for pointing that out! :encouragement:
I hope he doesn't mind a slight o/t: may I ask you if what I quoted above is true also for MAN and Cat?

 

[henryf]

Henry, it's not very clear but op says it is a demo boat sold by a professional seller. I think, but I'm not sure, op means a non private seller. (Admittedly I don't see why there is a broker!). That might mean op has rights as a retail buyer.
No hard facts though. Ditto as to the engine failure.

There does seem to be a bit of conflicting information. I can understand that English is not Balder's first language and that he is upset. Hopefully he is able to calm down a bit and make a clear post from which help and advice can be offered.

With our Porsche system tester we can store fault pages to be printed off or analysed later. I wonder if the service technician was able to do the same in this instance. I am assuming any fault codes were cleared from the ECU and there is no historic log available. Some items will be permanent logs, others temporary I suspect.

Either way not nice to have problems on a new to you boat.

Henry

 

[balder]

Bonsoir Gentlemen,

Thank you very much indeed for your advices and apologizes about my broken english...
About FACTS:

1 we are buying this North Sea Trawler 57 to a professional broker owner of this demo boat. Another boker who has this yacht for sale, helps us to conclude the deal in The Netherlands
2 our french surveyor - and us - discover seriuous problems : engine stalls . This is a John Deere 6081 AFM M1 rated, heavy duty , low hours 250 hours, serial number RG6081A296443
3 broker in Sleeuwijk organizes the repair with local mechanics. First, a John Deere agent from Molenaarsgraaf. He is doing the service.He is in fact a lawn mower dealer...I must admit there are many gorgeous gardens in The Netherlands!
4 a lift small pump is added after prefilters, Gulf coats filters are replaced by Separ filters ( with no protection on bowls..)
5 new trial, same problem. A contamination is discovered
6 seller, broker and purchaser are ok to empty the 3 tanks ( 8300 Liters). During a complete day, tanks are cleaned, tanks are filled with new diesel.
7 as an experienced owner, purchaser ask to have a full diagnostic by an official John deere marine agent.This is part of the repair list approved by seller, broker and purchser.
8 14/09/2015, NPS DIESEL agent come aboard with computer etc... clean pipes, change some valve check the engine with their diagnostic program.
During this day - before purchaser approved the boat - purchaser ask several times if there is no other damages. Answer - with 4 witness is " no danger, everything is ok"
9 now confident, purchaser accepts the boat, pay the last part of the price and leave this beautiful country, back to Med through the Channel and Atlantic.
10 near le Havre, new failure happens with "error codes" SPN 29 FMI 4, SPN 1347 FM and some times the engine stalls. ( this is a 57', 48 tons with one engine and a Keypower hydraulic pump for back home)
11 the new owner decide to stop in Port Guillaume to find solutions ( he is Norman..)
12 he calls NPS DIESEL in the Netherlands and receive a copy of the diagnostic done in september. The same errors codes were stored before and are clearly mentioned in the diagnostic
13 the owner calls now NPS office in France and ask for assistance
14 NPS France makes an offer : " a new diagnostic for 1200 EUROS"
15 new owner suggest to find a local professional mechanic who will try to repare under "control" of NPS France
16 NPS sells the spares and the local mechanic send the bill to the owner : 2700 EUR including VAT
17 the local mechanic replace filters, some pipes, take out the small lift pump following NPS recommandation ( why not is Sleeuwijk???)
18 new trial, same problems, the local mechanic refuse to do more on the engine as a non representative John deere
19 owner call again NPS diesel who refuse to have done a blame ( lack of explanation and information given to broker, seller and purchaser during the 14/09/2015 diagnostic)
20 completely upset, owner ask for repair by NPS France as soon as possible
21 answer is new "offer" with 25% discount, 8000 EUR exluding travelling fees etc..., normal cost should be 15000 EUR ( injection pump, rail pressure pipes, injectors)
22 owner refuse to pay this bill and ask seller, broker and NPS to deal with that
23 the yacht is now stuck in Port Guillaume!

I am sorry, Henry about this tedious list, but facts are facts. I suppose you would be also "emotional" in same conditions!!!

I should consider pay a part of this new quote ( this is a serious boat and we expected to some refit on her, we are living aboard, six months per a year). But I do not admit this unfair way to let a customer in this conditions.
I am honour member of SNSM, french lifeboat association. I have a lot of miles under my keel in many different parts of the world. I would not imagine what can happen in the Raz Blanchard or Chenal du Four or in the passage from Brest to La Corogna with the engine breakdown.

From a moral, professional, commercial point of view, this is unacceptable.

Bonne soirée à tous,
Fair winds and following seas!
Dominique

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

A sorry tale which I think hinges on whether the boat was sold by a dealer, in which case NL consumer laws may apply, or by a private owner via a broker, in which case I don't see that you have any comeback. In your first post, you describe the boat as a 'demo' boat which implies that it was being sold by a dealer but in your last post you seem to imply that the boat was being sold via a broker. So can you clarify further the exact selling situation please

I don't see that you have any comeback against NPS. So you found that there were some error engine codes recorded during the initial trial which are also present now. NPS could claim that the initial error codes were the result of the fuel tank contamination then and these same error codes now are as a result of damage caused since you took possession of the boat. That sounds harsh but we're talking about a contractual position. However, I'm sure its worth continuing to politely point out to them that they might have unknowingly contributed to your present predicament and how about improving their goodwill discount beyond 25%. You should ask the seller to help you with this

In the end, whilst I understand fully why you're angry you might have to just put this down to experience. I would try to rationalise it this way. If the boat had cost you €8000 more to buy than it did, would you have still bought it? Yes I'm sure you would.

 

[westernman]

10 near le Havre, new failure happens with "error codes" SPN 29 FMI 4, SPN 1347 FM and some times the engine stalls.

Fault 1) Secondary Analog Throttle Signal - Out of range, too low
Corrective Action: Check Sensor and Wiring

Fault 2) You are missing the FMI bit which will distinquish between the 3 possibilities below
a) Fuel Pump Solenoid #1 Open, Shorted Or Overloaded... Corrective Action: Contact Servicing Dealer
b) Fuel Rail Pressure Either Too High Or Too Low... Corrective Action: Check Fuel Filter and Lines
c) Fuel Flow Less Than Expected... Corrective Action: Check Fuel Filter and Lines

Check out http://manuals.deere.com/omview/OMRG35860_19/OURGP11_00000C1_19_27MAR06_1.htm

 

[balder]

A sorry tale which I think hinges on whether the boat was sold by a dealer, in which case NL consumer laws may apply, or by a private owner via a broker, in which case I don't see that you have any comeback. In your first post, you describe the boat as a 'demo' boat which implies that it was being sold by a dealer but in your last post you seem to imply that the boat was being sold via a broker. So can you clarify further the exact selling situation please

I don't see that you have any comeback against NPS. So you found that there were some error engine codes recorded during the initial trial which are also present now. NPS could claim that the initial error codes were the result of the fuel tank contamination then and these same error codes now are as a result of damage caused since you took possession of the boat. That sounds harsh but we're talking about a contractual position. However, I'm sure its worth continuing to politely point out to them that they might have unknowingly contributed to your present predicament and how about improving their goodwill discount beyond 25%. You should ask the seller to help you with this

In the end, whilst I understand fully why you're angry you might have to just put this down to experience. I would try to rationalise it this way. If the boat had cost you €8000 more to buy than it did, would you have still bought it? Yes I'm sure you would.

Deleted User, I would like also to rationalise a positive way... but I will not pay for faults, mistakes or non professional work.
Yes the boat was the property of SHIP VISION, a professional broker in the Netherlands ( commercial ships, tankers etc) and he asked SLEEUWIJK YACHTING and another Dutch Yacht broker to sale the boat for him as a leisure yacht. She has been built by TINNEMANS BV in Maasbracht ( 2008_-2010). The project, an ocean going yacht with stabs, high level of comfort, back home hydraulic system, and able to cruise as well on canals ( not the miserable canals in my country - they are abandoned by VNF, french bureaucracy!) has been developped by an American, Mr Ralph Lake, who tried to market this concept in Europe, mostly inspired by the long range trawler philosophy of Robert Beebe ( "Voyage under power"). I tried to post some pictures but I do not find how!!!

 

[westernman]

I tried to post some pictures but I do not find how!!!

I am guessing this is the boat in question:-

http://www.sleeuwijkyachting.nl/en/listings/details/15237/trawler-north-sea-57.html

Very nice too.

 

[MapisM]

Balder, I don't think your explanation about the companies involved in the sale clarifies the key point that others have already highlighted:
Was the previous owner of a boat a professional dealer or a private individual?
I mean, you must have signed a bill of sale where someone was the seller - and depending on whether this seller was a dealer or a private individual, you might have some protection or not.
You keep mentioning a broker, but a broker by definition does not own the boat, and can't therefore sell it.
He just gives a service, but it's the nature of the previous owner, i.e. of the seller, that really matters here.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Deleted User, I would like also to rationalise a positive way... but I will not pay for faults, mistakes or non professional work.
Yes the boat was the property of SHIP VISION, a professional broker in the Netherlands ( commercial ships, tankers etc) and he asked SLEEUWIJK YACHTING and another Dutch Yacht broker to sale the boat for him as a leisure yacht. She has been built by TINNEMANS BV in Maasbracht ( 2008_-2010). The project, an ocean going yacht with stabs, high level of comfort, back home hydraulic system, and able to cruise as well on canals ( not the miserable canals in my country - they are abandoned by VNF, french bureaucracy!) has been developped by an American, Mr Ralph Lake, who tried to market this concept in Europe, mostly inspired by the long range trawler philosophy of Robert Beebe ( "Voyage under power"). I tried to post some pictures but I do not find how!!!

She sounds like a very interesting boat and I, for one, would be very keen to see some photos and more information

So the big question is this. Did you pay Ship Vision directly for the boat against invoice or did you pay Sleeuwik Yachting acting as their broker?

PS for posting photos, first upload them to photo server like Photo Bucket or Picture Push. Then copy the URL of each photo and click on the Insert Image icon at the top of the Message page

 

[MapisM]

So the big question is this. Did you pay Ship Vision directly for the boat against invoice or did you pay Sleeuwik Yachting acting as their broker?

M, I don't think it's the payment that really matters here.
Regardless of whether there was a broker acting as a money collector or not, there must be a previous owner who invoiced the buyer - or signed a BoS as seller, if the sale wasn't meant to be invoiced, and THAT is the heart of the matter.
Coming to think of it, balder obviously must know whether the transaction was invoiced or not.
If yes, it still doesn't imply that the seller was a dealer, but if not, I'm afraid he can wave any consumer law protection goodbye...
...unless the seller was indeed a dealer and didn't issue an invoice, but that would be a fraud! :ambivalence:

 

[Latestarter1]

Can we please get back to basics.

Deere marine engines are O.K however their back up around the World can be a little patchy.

#1 Try to obtain new engine installation sign off documentation and signed warranty forms from builder.

It sounds like your woes started from the very moment engines were installed, IF engines properly installed to Deere guidelines with specified filtration contaminated fuel would stand no chance of damaging the engines fuel system.

No clue what Gulf coats filters are, however the question has to be asked IF original installation was compliant with Deere guidelines why switch to Separ, what model, what micron filtration, and by 'no protection' have to assume no WIF sensors were installed in the replacement filters.

Is my understanding correct that the Deere lawnmower service agent was responsible for replacing the original filters with the Separ pre filters and the adding the electric lift pump??

NPS paid to carry out installation check but did not pick up on the fact that this unorthorised alteration had been made to the fuel system?? On the face of it a Deere certified service agent has not identified the root cause of problem but added a sticking plaster of an electric lift pump and this was not picked up on the then Deere distributor NPS?

With regard to U.S. engine service tools the general procedure is to open a new job sheet, customer engine serial etc. Identify the faults, follow the symptom based diagnostics tree, correct the faults, clear them and then close the job sheet. The job sheet will only close if the active fault codes have been cleared. Save job sheet, print off and present to the customer. If Deere in territory dealers are not following the manufacturers guidelines then this needs reporting back to Deere customer service.

One words of advice, manufacturers do not respond well to emotional stuff ' I would not imagine if this had happened on passage from this place to that place'.

In trying to unravel this I keep coming back to the fact that the engine installation in this vessel was not fit for purpose and does not meet installation guidelines........Therefore it must surely follow that vessel not fit for purpose.