Buy a boat sooner or later

[DHV90]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking into buying a first cruising boat around 28-32 ft on a small budget (£10,000) for me and a few friends to spend some time exploring europe (in 2-3+ years time). My RYA courses are all booked in and after they are done I am wondering whether to:

Find a boat comfortably within my budget soon, and get out on it with more experienced sailors, get to know the boat and cut my teeth navigating and sailing at the same time. I see that you can get 'own boat' RYA tuition for £250 odd per day which is something I would go for immediately (with the friends I would be hoping to bring along), plus my yacht club would probably have a fair few experienced skippers that could take me out for a day here and there and let me watch over their shoulder to pick up what they're doing and try and learn from them for a small fee.

or

Try and crew on other peoples boats for the next year or two and look into buying a boat nearer the time we would like to move onboard and start cruising. giving me more time to crew on other boats without worrying about my own boat being out on the water

Mooring costs + insurance are not an issue, I have a good cheap mooring spot lined up, and maintenance will mostly be done by myself where possible, which makes owning a boat for the next couple of years seem relatively affordable and ultimately, I would really like to get familiar with a boat over a long period of time so there is no time pressure when buying one . It would give me time to make any small adaptations or changes and also clear up any small faults that present themselves. Obviously this is what I want to do but need to have some objective opinions really.

The main deciding factor in choices for me is accommodation and headroom, which is easy for me to assess, I'm relying on service history receipts and surveys etc. (other than my eyes!) to establish physical condition and any maintenance issues but ultimately going to choose the boat that best fits my accommodation needs that is also in the best state of repair, or something where those two criteria meet comfortably in the middle. I'm not intending on rushing out and impulse buying the first boat that turns up, but I am in all honesty keen to start looking and would love have a couple of years to go out on weekend trips at my own leisure rather than relying on other peoples' schedules. Because I am asking an awful lot of the money, I feel like the perfect boat could easily slip by at some point and if I start looking at whats available with a ticking clock I may end up feeling more forced into a greater degree of compromise.

Do I start looking now or wait until I've got far more sea miles under my belt?

Thanks for the help,

 

[Caer Urfa]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking into buying a first cruising boat around 28-32 ft on a small budget (£10,000) for me and a few friends to spend some time exploring europe (in 2-3+ years time). My RYA courses are all booked in and after they are done I am wondering whether to:

Do I start looking now or wait until I've got far more sea miles under my belt?

Thanks for the help,

Doing RYA coarses is all very good and useful and you can read all the books you like but my advice would be to get a boat and just 'do it'!

I am sure once you find a boat you will also find someone with more experiance to come with you and teach you how to sail it.

One day or a few days coarses are again fine but you need your own boat to experiance all the various weather conditions and what you need to do in those conditions.

Yes you and we all have made mistakes while learning and after 22 years of sailing I am still learning something new plus finding things to improve to suite the weather conditions.

Last year for example while under full sail my Genoa litrally froze solid in -12C conditions offshore when I wanted to reef it and I have yet to find any book that tells you what to do!!

I note your comments on I'm relying on service history receipts and surveys etc whilst there are many excellant surveyors there are also some I would not pay in peanuts, take someone experianced in boats with you when you go to look at any boat and take all the time in the world looking over it, when I do my Pre Buying Inspections Visits for Colvic Watsons I clearly tell the yacht broker or seller that I will be aboard at least 3hrs min as it's your hard earned money your going to part with and missing something can be very costly.

Get the best boat you can afford and get your own experiance!.

Mike

 

[lustyd]

Don't rule out buying something smaller/cheaper to practice on. I've had a great time on my little 20' boat and have learned a lot about the real costs of boat ownership. There will always be surprises in your budget so be prepared for them as well as purchase and berthing.

 

[Sailfree]

Doing RYA coarses is all very good and useful and you can read all the books you like but my advice would be to get a boat and just 'do it'!

We did just this in 1998 and bought a dufour 36 and never regretted it. Take advice on boat to buy and make sure its easy to sell as your requirements may chgange with experience.

We went from dinghy sailing to the 36' then 3yr later to a 38' then 3yrs later to the 43' deck saloon. Had the 43' now for 9yrs and are sticking with it. An expensive way to determine the boat you want but i could not justify the cost of a 43' as a starter boat!!

 

[Seajet]

Definitely get a boat sooner rather than later; there is big difference between learning to sail a boat and learning to own one.

As LustyD says, there is a lot going for the idea of a cheaper ' practice ' boat first; once you are all a bit more experienced you will probably look for different things in a boat than you start with.

Top Tip; Have Fun, it's not an endurance test; some people seem to forget this !

 

[CreakyDecks]

First join a club. People are ALWAYS looking for crew. In my club, smaller (20ft) cruisers change hands regularly between club members for very little money, hundreds not thousands, so A) there is no big financial outlay getting something to learn the ropes on and B) you get your money back without the hassle of trying to sell through "normal channels".

 

[ianat182]

I too am of the 'get a boat sooner' opinion and though I started in dinghies and racing the cruising side became more important as I aged! Your budget of around £10K for the boat should be split as one third the improvements and the remainder as the boat price;its amazing how much the small items of necessities mount up, and adding cruising chutes for instance, will soon gobble up the cash.
Budgeting about £600 for the maintenance ,on a DIY basis, will be about the minimum ,and if lift outs are involved this needs re-assessing too.
Yachts of the Westerly range all have adequate headroom and performance and sell on when an update is required, Trapper 500 and 501's are also good starter yachts with a fair turn of speed,affordable and can be single handed if necessary or preferred- the ar also rather shapelier and more modern looking than the Westerlys, but you should sail both for a fair comparison. The Tiger and Gk 24 for instance have their own peculiarities and the Tiger would be preferred for headroom and is a pretty fair sailer, fin keeled however so would depend on the mooring location; if shallow then the Centaur comes into the equation with bilge keels. I your intention to sail in European waters the the shallower draft will assist when travelling down to the Med say via the canals as opposed to the deep keel of the Tiger, and the same headroom benefit as the Tiger.
I've sailed several of the 24-29ft range of yachts and there are several out there that would satify your criteria - except price,
More opinions to follow I'm sure and some as biased as my own!


ianat182

 

[DHV90]

Hi everyone,
Thanks for all the responses! All very encouraging.
I was intending on splitting the budget to roughly £7,000 purchase price with some space for improvements. I am a member of a club with a drying mooring but it is soft mud and I am told that it will happily allow fin keelers to sink in safely. I will try and get along to a club meeting and keep ears open for boats changing hands.

I was intending on looking for something up to around 1.4m draft to allow for the french canals, and headroom is a very important aspect for me. Im 6'3 barefoot and so far have been aboard one boat that I could stand upright in, which I was preparing to make an offer on but has sold unfortunately. Was well equipped with new cruising chute, and excessively maintained by the now passed away owner but I was just a touch too late with that. Im planning on living on the boat for a long time so not being able to stand upright would make it feel extremely claustrophobic, more than any other factor really, so I want to avoid excessively low ceilings where possible, although that restricts my options severely I'll hold out for something appropriate for a few months and keep actively looking. I guess the yacht market dips a bit over winter so may be able to take advantage of that?


Thanks so much for all the help though, it's really encouraging!

 

[[70521]]

Good luck.

Can I suggest a Mirage 28, they are a bilge keeled boat with a good 6' head room. and should be in your price range (or a wee bit higher).

 

[johnalison]

Buy a boat as soon as you can. There should be enough of your club around to stop you killing yourself or causing havoc among the shipping. As one surgeon once told me with reference to teaching his juniors - "I leave them to get on with things; they don't learn a thing until they are sweating".

 

[Caer Urfa]

Hi everyone,
I was intending on looking for something up to around 1.4m draft to allow for the french canals, and headroom is a very important aspect for me. Im 6'3 barefoot and so far have been aboard one boat that I could stand upright in, so I want to avoid excessively low ceilings where possible, although that restricts my options severely I'll hold out for something appropriate for a few months and keep actively looking. I guess the yacht market dips a bit over winter so may be able to take advantage of that?QUOTE]

You need a Colvic Watson Motor Sailer 6'-4" headroom even on a 23'-6" model!

Mike

 

[Seajet]

searj,

well a Watson is one option certainly, though even Caer Urfa will acknowledge it's not everyone's cup of tea.

Shallow enough draught for the French Canals sounds a very good idea, I worked on them and loved it, aim to return in my boat.

Headroom over 6'3" in a boat around 28' is more difficult; and the higher a coachroof generally the increasingly negative effect on performance and looks...

I suspect you may have to compromise a little on headroom, I can't even think of any pure sailing boat offhand, good or bad, which fits !

 

[DHV90]

I do quite like the colvic watsons but do they really sail or are the sails there just to take some stress away from the engine? I think they look lovely and the accomodation would be great but I would really like to be able to use sails as the primary drive provider and find it slightly hard to believe that something quite that stocky would do anything other than crawl along without some engine help, but I would love to be told that I'm wrong!!

Bit out of budget, well lots out of budget, but this is gorgeous!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Colvic-Wa...ng_Goods_Sailing_Boats_ET&hash=item1c36795a5c
It's a ship not a yacht!

I'm looking at a few boats that have 6'1 headroom and may just have to do with that to be honest, or take the soleboards out and walk in the bilges I'm finding lots of boats I quite like actually and none with enough headroom so I think this might be one desiding factor too far, obviously I don't want to be bent double in a 5'5 space but tilting my head a little bit could probably be gotten used to.

Thanks again for all the input

 

[GraemeS]

Good luck.

Can I suggest a Mirage 28, they are a bilge keeled boat with a good 6' head room. and should be in your price range (or a wee bit higher).

+1 or the 29 - surprisingly large below.

 

[DHV90]

Well, thank you for the input everyone, I have gone ahead and bought the best boat I can afford. I came across an Oyster SJ36 Hustler, that will total £6,000 once it's moved to it's new home in Cardiff. It has had surveys done in 2005 and 2012, both finding it to be in sound condition all over. The interior is acceptable, I can stand up comfortably in the saloon and at the kitchen which is a blessing. It had a new (brand new, not second hand replacement) mast, rigging and sails in 2002 with aft swept spreaders which eliminated the running backstay and added a furling genoa. New chain plates were added which the surveyors both found to be adequate. Comes with main, genoa and spinnaker+gear which is limited but all I will need. All lines run aft to the cockpit with ample jammers winches and cleats, has a nice tiller with a good feeling action as well as a vast storage locker aft (if it were another boat they probably would have made it a berth!)

The deck paint wasn't applied properly and is peeling, revealing the original blue paint underneath, which isn't aesthetically pleasing but not an urgent matter. Same with some of the surfaces on the inside of the hull, but again, not a big deal.

There's a little water ingress from some deck fittings so my plan is to strip back the deck paint, and then remove deck fittings section by section, paint the section and as the sections dry seal the fittings as well as possible and replace them. Then run a serious dehumidifying operation inside for a few weeks, give everything a good clean and it's good to go! There are two DOUBLE aft cabins which seems unbelievable to me, but the forepeak is stripped out for sail storage. Im thinking of, in the long run, turning it into a nice bath/shower area or possibly sectioning off a bit of it to become an extra single berth and then making a nice job of the shower room. The boat really struck me though, beautiful looking hull and more interior space than anything i've seen yet. Needs some graft and some love but I can do all of that. I'll be putting up a project thread in due course with lots and lots of questions.

Anyone that wants to come for a bimble around cardiff bay with a relative newcomer on a an old Hustler do drop me a pm, always looking to share the experience and learn what I can from others. Hope you all think this is a sensible-ish decision. It's not the most beautifully finished or well equipped with electronics but the actual 'boat' parts of it seem to be the best that I could achieve with a meagre budget. And the aesthetic of the hull makes it something that I will take a lot of pride in and will feel driven to keep well presented, but not so pricey as for me to be too precious over her to go sailing.

Here's the ad of the boat:
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1981/Hustler-36-2445529/Burneside/United-Kingdom#.UkasyNI3uSp

The short term objectives are:
Sort the deck out and seal the fittings
Dry the interior out thoroughly when I'm confident no more water will come in.
Clean all wooden panels, revarnish some, and dry them all out thoroughly, plus wash them with borax or some other anti mould agent
Put fresh oil in and run the engine for a while, i've been assured that it was running perfectly when winterised, and turns over with good compression at the moment. Im confident I can get it running well, engines are the only area that I have any experience.

It appears there's no annode fitted to the prop, is that correct? If so, I will fit one before it goes back in the water, is there anything else I should make sure I do while the boat is still on the hard?

Also, I am keen to have the boat in the water over winter and get some sailing in, is there any danger of leaving a boat in the water during winter other than lots of rainfall testing the sealing work I do? Does icy water pose any threat to the fibreglass?

 

[jac]

Well done for taking the plunge. You have bought a lot of boat and you will learn a lot, far more than you would expect. Do try and find a friendly local who can look over for you and point out things you may have missed.

In the absence of that, - Take it step by step. Your priority list looks ok, keep the water out, the mast up and the engine serviceable and you should be ok.

You might want to get a local rigger to look at the standing rigging. If it's 2002 vintage then it's nearing the end of it's natural life, budget £1500 for replacement - maybe less if you can do some of it yourself and maybe ok for a year but will need doing before your big trip.

Other priorities would be to review all the gear/ equipment on board. Are the sails ok, no loose stitching, is the running rigging starting to chafe - if so replace. Does the electronics all work as expected, do the batteries hold charge, does the engine charge the battery. Don't think of using her until you know that the essentials work.

Don't be fooled into thinking you need to replace working but old equipment or replacing any broken electronics with like for like. Minimum would be an accurate steering compass, a hand bearing compass and up to date charts. I would then add a depth sounder and a cheap GPS and a decent VHF (maybe a handheld) . If you have all that you're fine - the rest just adds more cost and more options.

Finally don't overlook the anchor and cable, if she has been used on a lake, does she have an anchor and enough line. Loads of thought and controversy but any modern anchor should be ok - look around at boats nearby and see what they have. Go with minimum of 20m of chain and the same of warp. That will let you anchor in depths up to about 8m at high tide.

Re your last question re sailing in the winter. No problems as long as you're sensible. Keep the boat afloat with gentle heat to stop freezing - greenhouse heaters/ oil filled radiators with thermostats and a dehumidifier if the boat has shore power. When sailing, make extra sure that you stay on the boat, not over the side, plenty of warm clothes and warm hat, and make sure that you have a way of keeping boat warm at night. It may mean just going from marina to marina .

Most importantly, get out there and enjoy her. Far less to hit in November than in August!!!!

 

[Seajet]

Hi Searj,

as jac says well done, she looks very good value.

Just something to be aware of, I had a boat with a similar 1970's IOR inspired format re keel, hull etc, a Carter 30; I found drying her out aground alongside ' scrubbing piles ' a bit tricky, I had to wrap a rope sling under the stern ( rather than trusting the aft cleat backing pads ) as she was trying to settle on the rudder, which like your boat was a lot shorter than the small footprint, high aspect ratio keel.

Not a big deal as long as one's aware of it first.

I know a good sailor near to you, I'll try to contact him and get him in touch with you.

Have Fun,

Andy

 

[DHV90]

Luckily, I found an owner of an SJ35 through this very forum, the yacht's called barebones, and is more or less the same as the 36. The 36 has a bigger rear storage locker and was only an initial run of ten, but he has very kindly agreed to come and look the boat over with me when it arrives in Cardiff and give me a hand with getting all the rigging sorted out for the mast stepping. I will have no idea what I'm doing so his advice will be invaluable.

The rigging was looked at in the 2012 survey, as were the sails and everything else and no issues were found, sails recorded as being good but they will be checked over and maybe valeted by a sail loft if I have spare money. Batteries hold charge, the hifi head unit still powers up after the boat has sat on the hard for almost a year?! Must have been recharged at some point surely?

The instruments are all fairly new raymarine items, depth sounder, log, wind speed/direction and a fourth which I can remember (speed over ground perhaps?) and all in great condition so should work still. Inside she needs a new VHF, I'm tempted to just get a new handheld and keep the old one (if it works) in place as a backup. It has an old GPS device that just reads out your eastings and northings, which I will keep, but I may also try and re-purpose a laptop+gps USB stick or tablet with built in GPS to run navionics and us that as a chart plotter, cheaper and more flexible, just need a ziplock to keep dry. There are ample compasses all over the boat! One in the cockpit, two more outboard to either side of the cockpit, both broken though I think, and an extra hand held fixing compass by the nav table with a wall mount. there are 2 anchors, on 35 and one smaller I think? but I will probably add new chain and warp.

There is no windlass, but I think pulling up by hand shouldn't be a problem if I rig a small rope to lift the teeth out of the ground? I was thinking of tying a loop around one of the teeth or somewhere in that region and find a way of making it fast so I can pull the boat on top of the anchor and then just lift the line to free the teeth.

My plan is to sail for 2 years, get to know her and compile a list of what I would like to change, then haul her out before going on a long trip and spend a couple of months prepping her, so maybe new rigging, new antifoul, seacocks, annodes, spare sails, what ever comes to mind over the next 2 years really. My budgeting for now is £6000 to buy and move, an extra £1,500 to sort out and make nice, and then £2-3000 to spend in 2 years time leaving me with a well sorted boat for hopefully not too far over £10,000. I will happily do the majority of the work myself, im comfortable working on engines, could probably manage a fair amount of the running and rigging after getting to know how it works. The budget may seem a little on the low side but really that figure is more of a 'when you get close, keep a close eye on it' rather than stop when you reach it. I want to do stuff right but at the same time can't afford to throw notes at it!

Apparently, cardiff bay has a lift out and in for £55 each way. and for a lift out, scrub in the slings and put back they will only charge you 1x£55 so long as theres not other people wanting to use the lift so I might just do that, seems like fantastic value really for the peace of mind.

Thanks for all the kind comments everyone! I'm very excited, and the boat's a real pleasure to look at, that hulls a gorgeous shape.

keep using this picture as inspiration:
http://www.sailingnetworks.com/boats/view/19265

another of the first run of 10 36s

 

[doug748]

Well done, great value for someone who is willing to get stuck in.

The ad shows an anode on the propshaft - if it is still there and not loose, it will protect the prop.

The same shot shows rust on the P bracket, you will want to check that, it may need to be rebedded

 

[DHV90]

Checked the P bracket and despite looking a bit of a mess, it is solid and theres no play in it or the prop shaft, so wont muck around with it for now but in 2 years when we haul out Ill work out what I want to do with it, and will check it on any intermediate haul outs.

To be honest, getting 36 feet with 2 aft cabins and standing head room for £5000, well say 6, the work required seems fairly minimal, will spend a week on the boat fixing leaks and painting. Considering lining the outside walls of the 2 aft cabins (with the flaky paint) with some kind of self adhesive felt type stuff, less fuss than paint and nice and soft? Might ask for a sample of it and see how it looks.