Broker & Survey But No Comeback

[dazlindazza]

Just thought I would share a recent expereince with everyone for what it's worth.

I recently bought a boat through a broker at a fairly substancial amount of money so of course I ensured a survey was carried out on the boat which included engine inspection and sea trial.

Following the sea trial and just as the boat touched back alongside, one of the engines stopped due to that it had run out of fuel (previous owner being tight I guess). Obviously the owner put this right although my surveyor reported that the engine was eventually re-started but it did take the seller some time.

I should note that the surveor reported both engines as good conditon without any issues or leaks.

A few days later, I completed the purchase and went to collect, all looked OK after start up so we started the 5hr passage home. About half way home I checked the engine room and there was a lot of diesel in the bilge of said engine and it was clear that it was leaking from the injector feeds (not be tightened properly following bleeding through). As I had tools with me I managed to retighten and resumed the journey home.

Once home, I examined the engine and noticed there was oil sitting around one of the injectors. After a bit of investigation it seems oil was coming from around the injector and when looking a bit further the green paint on the injector clamp nut was all chipped and missing like someone had a spanner on there very recently where as all the others had a floorless cover of paint. To me it seems that perhaps when bleeding the system through the owner didn't know what he was doing and undid the wrong nut.

Obviously I went back to the broker as there was a clause in the sale and purchase agreement saying the seller has to put right any issues which develop before collection and it's clear by the fact that the surveyor documented no leaks to the engine, then it subsequently running out of fuel and having to be bled through that this was as a result of that. The seller denies this of course and the brokers are not interested and have told me that if I want to go down the breach of contract route thats for me to persue through legal action.

So in summary, it would seem that having a survey is to some degree pointless as unless you complete on the purchase and take the boat there and then, the seller can do anything to the boat and there is no come back.

A bit like going to buy a car and when you look around it you can see it's got 4 brand new tyres so you put your deposit down. A week later you go to collect the car but the garage has changed the tyres for 4 old worn out ones.

 

[jfm]

Sorry to hear this. Must say I don't agree your analysis. There is comeback in principle. With the car tyres the garage would owe you the cost of 4 tyres and the court would support you.

Going by your post you have strong evidence that the the problem developed before collection and you would I think win that in court (small claims track). However I dont see that you have suffered any loss, if the engine is ok after you tightened the nut. I suppose you lost £50 in spilt fuel, cleaning up and your inconvenience but £50 isn't worth fighting over. So have I misunderstood and have you actually suffered a significant loss?

 

[oldgit]

As it was a fairly substantial boat,costing a decent wedge of money, suspect any remedial work carried out to get the engine running again, was not undertaken by the actual owner but far more likely to have been farmed out to a marine servicing/repair company. ?

In the course of the " bleeding" work somebody has not properly secured an injector pipe union , resulting in diesel and oil leaking out into bilge.
As for discovering "irritating " malfunction woes after purchase, would not get too upset about this one. ?
The owner and broker were probably assuming the work had been carried out correctly and the problem would not had become apparent without an extensive and time consuming sea trial involving the surveyor again.

 

[kashurst]

I can understand why the OP is disappointed, however as the problem has been apparently fixed (albeit lacking in skill) the boat has been handed over in working condition.
If it's still niggling you, why not spend a bit of money having a reputable engineer give the engines another dose of looking at to put any worries at the back of your mind to bed. Money better spent than wasting it on lawyers/claims etc.

 

[jrudge]

The challenge is that it is in effect as private sale ( the broker is just that - bringing 2 people together).

The surveyor seems to have done his bit as the work was done post survey.

On the basis it is now ok and not leaking oil then I would get some green volvo paint from Keypart and enjoy a winter playing with the boat in anticipation of the summer.

Given the tone of your post I suspect you went back to the broker like a bull in a china shop as opposed to saying whoever did it seems to have messed it up, it out me £x and it seems fair you ask the former owner / whoever did the work to reimburse me.

I cant see that £x in this case is more than say £50, and in your 5 hour passage depending on the size of the boat you probably went through 1000 lts of diesel so I would probably just accept it.

As a warning over the next few weeks you are likely to find far more expensive things that either dont work or in your view need replacement. Surveying a boat and using in my experience bring out quite different things.

Congrats on your purchase.

 

[dazlindazza]

If it was just the loose injector feeds then I agree the problem would have been solved, but to then discover that oil is weeping out from around the first injector is for me something else and something I dont believe I should have to sort. I've spoken to my local engineer who agrees with me it looks like the injector nut was probably loosened in error which has made it lose its seating against the copper washer so probably needs a new injector sleave & washer. The engineer did tell me that depending on exactly whats been done, he's know the copper washer to break before so when the injector is removed the pieces fall down in to the head which will then need to be removed to find the pieces. So for me, although it could just be a simple job to solve, it could also potentially be a much more serious one and a much higher cost.

It may be worth pointing out that the seller confirmed that none of the work was carried out by a professional and was done by himself which is another point of contention for me. As I had already put an offer down on the boat and survey / sea trial carried out I would have thought it fair that the work was carried out by a professional.

 

[markc]

I know it must be frustrating, but it's a used boat and as Jrudge mentioned above I'm sure you'll find plenty of other things to fix. The only option with this is to rely on the goodwill of the vendor or just sort it yourself. It certainly does not seem a big enough issue to spoil your first days of ownership.

 

[Andy Cox]

I'm not sure I understand where the oil is coming from?

Surely, the only thing that can come past the injector is compression / combustion gasses which I suspect is mixing with some residual diesel that has pooled around the injector base and creating a dirty liquid mess.

I would clean the area thoroughly and spray a WD40 type product around the base of the injector, creating a pool of liquid, whilst the engine is running. This will clearly show if the injector is properly sealed on it's base. If there is no evidence of gasses coming past the injector then just give it another good clean and put a dollop of paint on the injector hold down nut as previously suggested by jrudge.

Please make sure you are safe whilst working around the engine and don't spray any aerosol into the air intake.

Andy

 

[volvopaul]

I'm not sure I understand where the oil is coming from?

Surely, the only thing that can come past the injector is compression / combustion gasses which I suspect is mixing with some residual diesel that has pooled around the injector base and creating a dirty liquid mess.

I would clean the area thoroughly and spray a WD40 type product around the base of the injector, creating a pool of liquid, whilst the engine is running. This will clearly show if the injector is properly sealed on it's base. If there is no evidence of gasses coming past the injector then just give it another good clean and put a dollop of paint on the injector hold down nut as previously suggested by jrudge.

Please make sure you are safe whilst working around the engine and don't spray any aerosol into the air intake.

Andy

This post seems a bit vague to me in that the make and model of engine is not stated , I’m assuming it’s s kad 44 or 300 as that’s the only kad motor that van leak oil around the injector .
Possibly the owner slackened off the leak off rail bolt in his attempt to bleed the system and not the main pipe . If the main pipe was loose for the miles covered there would have been a significant loss in power from that engine cylinder.

I’d suggest the op gives us a bit more info .
The copper sleeve can give blow by but in some cases you can clean this with a special tool so there is no need to replace the sleeve at significant cost.

A simple running out of fuel would not cause these issues so I am wondering if your surveyor has missed something on the engine inspection.

 

[Dazzajohm]

It's unfortunate that selling and buying of boats is so unregulated, and there is rarely any comeback. Even buying from a dealer and there being a warranty as I have done before there is little come back.

 

[dazlindazza]

The engine is tamd41

I understand there will always be tihngs that need doing on a used boat and that probably this issue is simple to fix but the point I'm trying to make here is that surely when you have a survey carried out on a boat and then you move to finalise the purchase, that is accepting the vessel in the condition reported in the survey. If the owner then does something to the boat which causes a problem before you collect the boat they should be liable. Even the terms in the purchase agreement I signed along with the owner through the broker says this but as soon as I pointed this out the brokers are not interested.

someone suggested that perhaps I went about this the wrong way but I thought I was being quite nice about it, I detailed the problem, said that from the info I have it seems that the seller caused it trying to re start the engine and just asked if the seller could arrange for it to be repared. It wasn't even like I asked for money, I just wanted the thing repared.

 

[Tranona]

It's unfortunate that selling and buying of boats is so unregulated, and there is rarely any comeback. Even buying from a dealer and there being a warranty as I have done before there is little come back.

That is a very jaundiced view. Sales between private individuals such as your recent purchase are subject to individual contracts - how could it be any different? if you believe the vendor has not fulfilled his side of the contract then take action against him.

The CRA gives you extensive rights if buying from a trader in addition to any individual warranty the trader gives.

 

[jrudge]

That is a very jaundiced view. Sales between private individuals such as your recent purchase are subject to individual contracts - how could it be any different? if you believe the vendor has not fulfilled his side of the contract then take action against him.

The CRA gives you extensive rights if buying from a trader in addition to any individual warranty the trader gives.

Agree. It is little different to houses to be honest. You look, you buy, you have a survey or the minimum your mortgage company will accept and unless there is something very grossly amiss you are on your own. Private car sales the same.

 

[Tranona]

The engine is tamd41

I understand there will always be tihngs that need doing on a used boat and that probably this issue is simple to fix but the point I'm trying to make here is that surely when you have a survey carried out on a boat and then you move to finalise the purchase, that is accepting the vessel in the condition reported in the survey. If the owner then does something to the boat which causes a problem before you collect the boat they should be liable. Even the terms in the purchase agreement I signed along with the owner through the broker says this but as soon as I pointed this out the brokers are not interested.

someone suggested that perhaps I went about this the wrong way but I thought I was being quite nice about it, I detailed the problem, said that from the info I have it seems that the seller caused it trying to re start the engine and just asked if the seller could arrange for it to be repared. It wasn't even like I asked for money, I just wanted the thing repared.

If he agreed to repair it and did not do it properly, and as a result you suffered a loss then claim for that loss against him. Difficult for anybody here to advise on the chances of success because only you and he know what was agreed. The broker has no liability as he was not party to the contract, although one would hope that he would try to help resolve the dispute between the two of you.

Just get it repaired properly by a Volvo agent and send the bill to the seller as a start.

 

[hullabaloo]

Just get it repaired properly by a Volvo agent and send the bill to the seller as a start.

Too late, i think he as already tightened it it up. :redface-new: it took 5 minutes.
Welcome to boats dazza.
Most boats have a large slot on the top so you can pump your money in.
I collected my boat from poole, we made the bristol channel, a jubilee clip came loose, i nip't it up, put some hot water in and headed on my way to north wales. No big deal and i did not sue anyone.
take it on the chin and carry on.
you will get bigger problems !

 

[superheat6k]

If he agreed to repair it and did not do it properly, and as a result you suffered a loss then claim for that loss against him. Difficult for anybody here to advise on the chances of success because only you and he know what was agreed. The broker has no liability as he was not party to the contract, although one would hope that he would try to help resolve the dispute between the two of you.

Just get it repaired properly by a Volvo agent and send the bill to the seller as a start.

If he sent me the bill I would send it straight back to him, unpaid. The seller was seemingly under no obligation to engage a professional just to bleed his engines. The buyer was aware of this issue and mode of correcting the issue, indeed the surveyor seemingly advised it was done satisfactorily, but the buyer did not further check the issue was properly resolved, accepted the boat and took it away. Caveat Emptor surely.

Whereas it may well be the fault of the seller that this leak occurred, proving this is another matter entirely. The Surveyor has advised all is OK, and the buyer did not check things further. The seller can simply hold his position - it was OK when he handed over the keys, after all the buyers surveyor himself was happy..

I agree with your comments intimating surveyors being a waste of space, but they are your (as buyer) waste of space, in my experience some are at best incompetent, at worst devious, often creating faults or making obscure trivial issues sound important to justify their fee. Presently at least two are specifically are banned from any boat I own. Another who looked at a boat I was selling could not fault the engines, but suggested the buyer lump £3k off the agreed price, just in case.

 

[Tranona]

If he sent me the bill I would send it straight back to him, unpaid. The seller was seemingly under no obligation to engage a professional just to bleed his engines. The buyer was aware of this issue and mode of correcting the issue, indeed the surveyor seemingly advised it was done satisfactorily, but the buyer did not further check the issue was properly resolved, accepted the boat and took it away. Caveat Emptor surely.

You need to read what I suggested in context. I said if he believed the seller had not fulfilled his obligations and his inaction had resulted in a loss then he should send the bill.

As ever there is always two sides to the story and all we have is one confused account of what happened which does not give confidence that it really reflects what actually happened - rather what the OP wished had happened.

I am with you and others that this is a non issue. The problem has been fixed with a bit of inconvenience and there is no loss to the OP. However if he really thinks there is then he should pursue it in the way suggested.

 

[Boat2016]

I agree with your comments intimating surveyors being a waste of space, but they are your (as buyer) waste of space, in my experience some are at best incompetent, at worst devious, often creating faults or making obscure trivial issues sound important to justify their fee. Presently at least two are specifically are banned from any boat I own. Another who looked at a boat I was selling could not fault the engines, but suggested the buyer lump £3k off the agreed price, just in case.

I agree there’s some surveyors who you can’t trust but there are good and bad in all trades, if you are one of those who can’t accept criticism from a surveyor then don’t try and sell a boat as most sensible buyers will appoint a surveyor, if I was told the surveyor of my choice was not allowed on a boat I was buying I would walk as that would indicate there’s something to hide but then I don’t trust a lot of sellers either which is why I would get whatever boat it is professionally checked, it’s funny how what ever owner you meet says their boat is the best one available and best looked after when in reality you find things different once you start looking, I personally know what I’m looking at but get professional opinion to back that up and to hopefully see anything I would have missed.

 

[Seastoke]

I agree there’s some surveyors who you can’t trust but there are good and bad in all trades, if you are one of those who can’t accept criticism from a surveyor then don’t try and sell a boat as most sensible buyers will appoint a surveyor, if I was told the surveyor of my choice was not allowed on a boat I was buying I would walk as that would indicate there’s something to hide but then I don’t trust a lot of sellers either which is why I would get whatever boat it is professionally checked, it’s funny how what ever owner you meet says their boat is the best one available and best looked after when in reality you find things different once you start looking, I personally know what I’m looking at but get professional opinion to back that up and to hopefully see anything I would have missed.

+1

 

[superheat6k]

I agree there’s some surveyors who you can’t trust but there are good and bad in all trades, if you are one of those who can’t accept criticism from a surveyor then don’t try and sell a boat as most sensible buyers will appoint a surveyor, if I was told the surveyor of my choice was not allowed on a boat I was buying I would walk as that would indicate there’s something to hide but then I don’t trust a lot of sellers either which is why I would get whatever boat it is professionally checked, it’s funny how what ever owner you meet says their boat is the best one available and best looked after when in reality you find things different once you start looking, I personally know what I’m looking at but get professional opinion to back that up and to hopefully see anything I would have missed.

I do not apply this to all surveyors. I have no problem with fair comments and observations, no matter how uncomfortable the truth may be. But when remarks are made because the surveyor does not understand the boat's systems, he exaggerates the trivial, or simply reports non-existent issues then I take umbrage. I appreciate my stance may send a would be buyer off, but in my experience my doing this will save them ~ £800 of surveyors and haul out fees, and everyone's wasted time, as with these jokers they would not buy the boat anyway.