Brittany ... no not her .. frogland

[jimi]

Good or bad ..

No one disputes that in the 70's industry was in a terrible state being rife with strife,ignorance, old fashioned attitudes and practices. Lack of market focus , appalling management allied with horrific IR, guidance by rear view vision,operational rather than investment subsidy by govt being but a few of the ailments besetting us. It may well be that the best way to deal with this was to shut everything down and start again and no doubt the country as a whole is better off now than then (as is the rest of the world) But .. don't tell me everyone is better off .. there is a lost generation around which lost work in the 70's and never worked again... but all progress has its price I suppose.

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[zefender]

Re: Provincial Legends & urban myths

Trouble was that the loadsamoney times of the 80s turned out to be something of a mirage. Truth was that there was no real money due to discrace of family silver selling scams and other short term trouserings for the middle and estuary Englanders, fooling them into believing real wealth (for that read long term structural growth) was actually being created. Mrs T and her 'princes of darkness' acolytes were responsible for much of what we are paying for now.

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[claymore]

Re: Good or bad ..

The appalling management appears to still exist. A friend was telling me that the inside word at Barrow in Furness on why we lose armament/shipbuilding contracts is that the project management is lousy and we never achieve taget dates. Or perhaps thats just the shopfloor blaming management?

<hr width=100% size=1>regards
Claymore
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[Robih]

Thanks for the extra brief. By the way, when you were down at La Rochelle did you press on a little furthe to Rochefort? The pilot book's seem to rate it highly, but nobody from here has mentioned going up the river to have a look.

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[Sybarite]

I go there regularly : The beach on Houat and the Glénan are my favourite places. I think if the power cable were a serious risk some action would be taken to keep the boats out of the way. There are patrols which normally just ensure that you are moored outside the yellow buoys (300m swimming zone). The beach normally provides shelter from the prevailing winds but if the wind moves round to the north you can find yourself beam on to the waves. No danger just a comfort problem.



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[tcm]

long term structural growth

That seems a rather Toynbee-esque put-down of the almost dramatic way in which the Mrs T era changed things for the better, rather than for the worse.

The 80's were a time when UK fairly spectacularly overhauled the continentals. Remember, "alternative comedy" started inthe late 70's - essentially just standup not making jokes but poking fun at ourselves, silly lazy brits making crap cars and going on strike. But the policies pursued so determindely n the early 80's worked. At the time, with our "British Disease", it was unthinkable that the UK would ever catch up with germans, french, japanese or americans. But we did.

We attract their investment, buy their land and buy their industry. In Europe they are secretly jealous of the free markets and free labour markets which Blair carefully preserves, whilst all the time managing to keep the left (who thought he would change it all) onside with freebies for tub-thumping provincial ministers, and you'll note that there's a nice selection from every part of the UK, various skin colours, both sexes, able-bodied and otherwise.

But the 80's also saw a shift away from traditional industries. Weird things like software, financial services, consulting sound like a load of phooey to many who are gladdened at the black white piccies of a workforce of thousands rushing to clock into a pit, a foundry, a car plant - real "industries". "Structural" industries, even , which were nationalised in the late forties, protected in the fifties, and pulled themselves apart by lack of competitiveness, not being attractive to anyone who wanted to get ahead, or (why not?) buy a boat. I never heard anyone say proudly that their kids had got a job with the Coal Board, you know. Oh yes, he's decided to make a name for himself with the Gas Board. But the Gas Board (for example) still ran a work force including fitters who took there vans home with work tickets for the next day, actually knocked on the doors very softly with the paper work tickets (this is true) and filled in the form that nobody answered the door.

So the badly-run industries were sold off. Of course, they weren't fab overnight, and indeed a sweetner to enable the selloff included jobs for quite few of the wrong boys. Was this "real wealth"? Yes, it was. Selling the license to supply gas, produce electricity or whatever is not at all "phoney". It's not a "mirage". People at home and abroad used real money to buy shares. They lose real money if the shares go up or down. It's not "pretend". It's not "more real" that we mine and sell coal for example- after all, one might say, the coal is there anyway, in the ground, we're selling lumps of the country, pretty soon there'll be nothing left and no country either!

Though I don't much pretend to like the idea of people making money when kids have a bath, we still seem to able to see examples of a job being done well for the sake of it only abroad. Whatever the rights and worngs, there is now and has been for some years, as near full employment as a generous welfare state permits, allowing people to resolutely remain an out-of-work miner in a town without a pit for the rest of their natural lives.

Imho, the real legacy of the last twenty or more years was a repeated, graphic and widely seen illustration of people (within limits, of course) doing what they want, as they want. Sure, it's cheapened and demonised by loadsamoney, poshnbecks, spice girls and so on. But far lower costs of communication (like here, phones, mobiles, TV) and an altogether more switched-on population means that strikes of the type launched by the firemen are queried rather than accepted with a shrug. The same communication allows us all to contrast and compare lifestyles, products, careers, courses, ideas, and know that actually, most of us are normal in wanting nice things, nice jobs, nice friends, nice family and are prepared to work hard winning and protecting them.

The basic arguments are over. Work hard, be nice, be a bit lucky, you'll be okay. Don't bother much at school, sag off work, let opportunities waft past, and you'll lose out when or more likely when the econmic cycle works against rather than for you. There's nothing "structural" about this. Huge companies start, prosper, are "structural and "planned" but go out of fashion. Most kids these days don't go to fish and chip shops, don't travel by train, don't read loads of Enid Blyton books. Result: Macdonalds is more successful, trains are primarily commuter tools, libaries are empty but TV and internet is all the rage. How could it ever be "structural" that we all now buy zillions of gallons of blimmin bottled water whereas in the 70's we bought none? How could it be "structural" that products like BBC Acorns and Lotus 1-2-3 were so mainstream that they were boought and taught by schools, yet disapeared with a few years?

The idea of "structural" growth implies that the general rules of competition, supply, demand, and fashion can all be worked through and around if only the horrid moneygrubbing types would stay out of it just for a darned moment. This dreadful short-termism, see, is spoiling everything.

Except that everything is fairly short term, isn't it? Governments, human lives, are fairly short term. We are babies, infants, kids, youths, students, first-time-buyers, firstjobbers, newly-weds, yuppies, managers, directors, go-getters, family types, middle-aged, captains of industry, near-retired, pensioners....for fairly short amounts of time. Now, of course, some of the "short-termism" like directors of public companies paying themselves whatever they like is not on, and could/should be stopped. But more generally, kids these days are quite clear what they need to do - work hard, get a job, do your best. It works.

Fact is, we don't much need governments. Or, we need them far less. Computers have made a massive impact on the eficiency in the private sector, but in the public sector, spending has gone up, not down. It costs more to collect taxes than it used to, before computers. Amazing. It costs more, much more, to govern the country, with local this and that, than it used to when it took days to travel from one end of the country up to London. It would seem to make more sense to reduce the amount of local government rather than increase it when government officials can swoop around the entire county in a day by helicopter, private news-gathering collects hoardes of data electronically and so on.

The general trend of taxes under Mrs T was downwards. The general mood was that things were going to get better, and they did. Both these trends have been reversed. Mrs T certainly paved the way for a PM that could do pretty much as he or she wanted. But she didn't pave the way for people to revert to complaining that "something should be done", nor for bigger government, nor for governments bragging about the amount they have spent rather the effect they have had.

And certainly, most certainly, Mrs T did not pave the way for people sighing that ah well, see, the reason for this general situation is that ten or even twenty years ago, we laid the foundations which lead us to be in the pooh now, unavoidable, see? Things aren't unavoidable, nor inevitable. The UK changed for the better. It can change again.

To start, though, it might need a government that doesn't blame everyone but itself, that launches its second term with a central policy being er foxhunting, and finds itself on the brink of a daft war waged by the US with a distant only-slightly-relevant country - so lesson #1 starts with copying Harold Wilson sidestepping of the Vietnam war. Then, "structural" improvements along the lines of at least moderate roadbuilding (m25, channel tunnel, from the 80's) might be tackled rather better than the modern-day weak and irrelevant civil engineering projects such as uh, the Dome.

"If we can't make a success of this we should pack it in and go home" said Prescott in June 1997. They haven't made a success out of it. They haven't made a success out of ANYTHING. I wonder when they they'll pack it in and go home.

 

[Forbsie]

Re: long term structural growth

For heaven's sake, Matt. Lunch in Antibes, potter on boat, back to UK and still time to pen a 1400 word thesis on the state of the country!

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[qsiv]

No we didnt -we were on a fairly tight schedule. We held our breath, checked every pilot booke and the builders drawings and turned to starboard under the bridge over the Pertuis Bretonne. I dont know how much clearance we had - not much as two girls nearly fell off their bikes as we went onder. We should have had a few meters - but bridges scare me rigid!

St Martin de Re is just exquisite, which is where we anchored off for the night (we are too big to go in) - actuallually I seem to remember we picked up a mooring (1 of three). My wife liked the shops - and we all enjoyed the restaurants/

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[zefender]

Re: Toynbee meets Max Hastings

achievements? er lowest interest rates for 40 years, independence of monetary committee (as opposed to vote buying rues of yore), unemployment rate most european countries would yearn for, modest but stable GDP growth and probably the brightest economic star in Europe, huge (but still inadequate) increases in education, health and rail transport spending as opposed to virtual abandonment/truly pathetic management by 70s/80s governments, far more pragmatic, less dogmatic approach to issues than the cavalier Mrs T and unimaginative Major. I'm delighted we no longer have to tolerate a Prime Minister who displayed her 'profound' political thinking with the remark "There is no such thing as society".

Fred drifting I know ....sorry. By way of recompense can I mention how nice Cameret is but the showers and loos are truly vile.

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[claymore]

Re: long term structural growth

Matt
Overall, a well crafted piece of work. You write fluently and imaginatively using appropriate vocabulary.
I feel perhaps that having written the piece - you probably felt a bit better - as if you had got something off your chest. Whilst carefully used emotion can colour an assignment, I think it would be better if you could focus more closely on the topic. A good way of doing this is to set out in your introduction what it is you are going to say. Follow that up in the main bulk of your work and then perhaps a short re-cap at the end to draw the readers attention to the main points you wish them to consider.
All claims need to be substantiated - if I could use for example your allusion to the Gas Board Workers - it is not enough to describe their practice of returning work sheets with 'house empty' written in the appropriate place - you really need witness testimony - again 'Wilson avoiding Vietnam' - perhaps you should find the appropriate section in Hansard and reference that (Harvard method please).
I also see you make mention of the Millenium Dome - unless my memory fails me- I do believe it was a Conservative Government who first laid plans for this albeit extravagant Celebration of Life and yet you mention it within the context - indeed the same sentence as one which is referring to the Labour Government activities.
Only a minor point I know but we are studying for a Masters Degree.
Finally - we seem to be suffering from strategic drift. The original question concerned Brittany and yet your piece is woefully short of reference to this. Perhaps President Chirac's stance has annoyed you and you feel that you do not wish to contribute to the French Tourism coffers by making recommendations - perhaps you feel that enough has been written already, that we are suffering from paralysis through analysis - or perhaps it may be that your knowledge of this area is slender - I think it would be better for all if you were to include that in your introductory passage.
Overall, a sound piece - displaying your ability to reach beyond the paradigm.
Well done
M-

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Claymore
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[tcm]

No such thing as society

The "no such thing as society" was a direct ripost to those who insisted that "society" felt this or that, as though there was a physical thing like a family to which we all signed up, managed, supported, and although its nice to think there is such a family atmosphere, there isn't really amongst the diverse 58 million populace. Like the "labour movement" or "the intelligentsia" there is no such actual thing. But those who like their politics all warm and cuddly learned "no such thing as society" as a mantra

The MPC isn't an incredible step forward. It's a buckpassing move. Education isn't "vastly improved" at all, I see my kids getting good marks in Latin without ever having to er translate something into Latin , and the aim to have 50% of people go through university is faintly mad. Universities were a mark of excellence, now they'll be average.

the essence of Blairism is this : he is not Mrs Thatcher. Major tried to be "not mrs Thatcher" but failed. TBlair is not from the same party, but another party who suddenly promised to chuck over all the principle that they had (CND, pro-union, ownership of means of production) and be sort-of tories. But they believe in er nothing at all. We have widespread use of words like fair, opportunity, reasonable, inclusive, self-determining, stakeholder, without any of these words meaning anything specific - that would be "dogmatic", whereas New Labour embraces a wider church to include all the people and the whole of our society to fulfill their potential in whatever their chosen and individual earnest enthusiasm fair and reasonable strained slight frown yapity yap, Jeremy.


Anyway, for myself I have not been to camaret but recommend St Malo. What is it about the loos and shoers at camaret that make them "vile?" Oh and I bought a new Livre de Bord yesterday in france. I toyed with the idea of buying half a dzen and drgging them back to flog here, but I felt that it would be a bit pushy.


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[tome]

Jimi

Wife and I are planning to go there early July. We want to do a longish trip together as preparation for ARC so are looking at non-stop to La Rochelle and then a gentle cruise back up the coast.

I've done this before a couple of times and have yet to visit a place that's disappointed (except Les Sables d'Olonne which is like Hayling seafront). Very friendly folk, and the islands, as stated elsewhere, are superb.

We did get caught in a typhoon (?) approaching Ile d'Yeu during a hot August day but got away with a brief pasting, although it went ashore and hit a caravan park, reportedly with fatalities. This on a bright sunny day without a cloud in the sky. Warning signs were that the sky started to go a funny purple colour out to the West so we started to get sail off not liking the look of it. When it hit it was cyclonic with heavy rain and zero vis, but all over in 15 minutes. We anchored, went ashore and hired bicycles for the day.

Incidentally, the pilot books seem to regard La Rochelle as North Brittany with the dividing line to S Brittany at the Gironde.

Regards
Tom

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[tcm]

Re: long term structural growth

Ooh, thankyou.

About the Dome - it was indeed an idea floated prior to june 1997. But the New labour made it very clear that they reserve their position and their veto if they won the general election from months before, refusing to confirm that they would honour contracts, so the whole thing drifted in early 97. In the first week of June 87, Tony and prescott toured the place, and decided that yes, they would consruct the dome. They determined the structure, style and content all along the line, with TB's closest ally Mandy in charge.

I agree that New Labour haven't actually done anythingat all much, but they did build and run the dome.

No, the dome was not a New Labour idea. But the whole essenece of New Labout was never to have force new ideals or dogma on an a populace whjo wanted to avoid the divisions of the last 20 years where half the country voted for Mrs T and the others thought Kinnock was a bit stupid. New labour is about Dithering, thinking, holding back, considering, summit meetings, compromise sort of.

Abandoning grammar schools and assisted places, trebling the number of government consultants, banning foxhunting sort of a bit unless you have a licence, moving PM Questions to a single day, moving the broadcast out on R4 Long Wave so hardly anyone hears it, leaving the school league tables in place which they said they wouldn't, leaving the privatised trains, buses, lotery all which they said they wouldn't, twiddling about with an unstructured taxation system that revolves around doing just anything except raise the basic rates of income tax, getting a massive majority and then spedning 3 years to pass the buck on to a mayor who now decides policy and spending without reference to the govt who enabled his election....all these are New Labour ideas.

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[Robin]

Don't you mean North Biscay versus South Biscay?

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[Guest]

La Rochelle is not in Brittany.

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[Robin]

Don't tell me tell Tome, I quite agree!

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[tome]

OOOPS!

Quite right, I confused Brittany with Biscay. No flies on you lot...

TomE

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[Sybarite]

Same thing happened to me near the Ile d'Aix. Flat calm and the rest of the crew below decks; I called for them to come and get the sails down and they thought I was kidding. It blew us flat and dismasted a boat beside us.

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[Sybarite]

Re: Toynbee meets Max Hastings

There are two sets of 'sanitaires' in Camaret : The old ones on the pier and modern ones on the townfront.

Remember how BMC (British Motor Corporation) used to be the largest European car manufcaturer in the 50's ?

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[jimi]

Re: Toynbee meets Max Hastings

I thought Bentley made the largest European cars?

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