jimi
Well-Known Member
what gets on my goat is some climbing instructors saying the fig 8 is dangerous without a couple of half hitches in case the knot inverts .. utter twaddle IMHO
Bowline, or Figure of Eight knot?
- Thread starter Sgeir
- Start date
Sgeir
Well-Known Member
Now, he'd have been a bowline man;
TwinRudders
Well-Known Member
If you're in a bit of a situation you can tie a bowline one handed - used to be able to do it - but it's been a while.
jimi
Well-Known Member
Betcha if he was middle of rope of 3 he'd have been an Alpine Butterfly man ;-)
Orla
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
what gets on my goat is some climbing instructors saying the fig 8 is dangerous without a couple of half hitches in case the knot inverts .. utter twaddle IMHO
[/ QUOTE ]
Agree entirely, I am an Idustrial rope access instructor and have never taught anyone to put a half hitch on after the knot waste of time and rope, and IMHO not needed.
I have put a barrel knot on after a fig 8 if i am lowering a very nervous client down from a great height, the sight of a big tidy bomb proof knot tends to put them at ease. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
what gets on my goat is some climbing instructors saying the fig 8 is dangerous without a couple of half hitches in case the knot inverts .. utter twaddle IMHO
[/ QUOTE ]
Agree entirely, I am an Idustrial rope access instructor and have never taught anyone to put a half hitch on after the knot waste of time and rope, and IMHO not needed.
I have put a barrel knot on after a fig 8 if i am lowering a very nervous client down from a great height, the sight of a big tidy bomb proof knot tends to put them at ease. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
roger
Well-Known Member
Figure of 8 as a stopper in sheets?
I find a figure of 8 very insecure as a stopper for my sheets.
I now use a sort of thub knot but loopig the free end through the knot once more. This does not come loose but is (so far) easy to undo.
I find a figure of 8 very insecure as a stopper for my sheets.
I now use a sort of thub knot but loopig the free end through the knot once more. This does not come loose but is (so far) easy to undo.
Malcb
Well-Known Member
Surely the 'design' (and note the quotes) of knots reflects the different way that ropes are made (constructed).
A knot designed for a conventionally laid rope might not be the right knot for a 'modern' sheathed rop. In the same way that you cannot splice a sheathed rope as you would a laid rope.
A knot designed for a conventionally laid rope might not be the right knot for a 'modern' sheathed rop. In the same way that you cannot splice a sheathed rope as you would a laid rope.
bilbobaggins
N/A
Jings!
Yon bottom yin looks like the now-quite-rare Left Handed Duntocher Wally Ham Hitch with Two Half-Whatsits.....
"Take in the tight!"
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Yon bottom yin looks like the now-quite-rare Left Handed Duntocher Wally Ham Hitch with Two Half-Whatsits.....
"Take in the tight!"
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
graham
Well-Known Member
I find people tend to use the bowline for everything even where other knots are more appropriate. eg A round turn and two half hitches can be untied uinder strain ,a bowline cant.
johnkeith
Active Member
I learned to climb using the bowline and have always stuck with it. Over the years people have tried to convert me to the re-threaded figure of eight. I've never been convinced because the small strength benefit is for me outweighed by the bowline being much faster to tie, easier to undo if it takes any weight and gives a more predictable length on the tail end.
The one time I would use a figure of eight in a climbing situation is in an indoor climbing wall where the 'trained' staff only know one knot and can't cope with the idea that there might conceivably be a range of options.
From memory I think that the debate over bowline vs. figure of eight goes way back to the days before harnesses because the the bowline could slip and compress your ribcage when used with a rope tied round the waist.
Finally, I can't think of any sailing situation where a rethreaded figure of eight would be superior to a bowline.
Sorry to go on at length but 'free spirited' climbers seem to find the idea of someone not using the same knot to tie on almost as offensive as another climber not using chalk powder to deface the natural environment.There, glad I got that off my chest!
The one time I would use a figure of eight in a climbing situation is in an indoor climbing wall where the 'trained' staff only know one knot and can't cope with the idea that there might conceivably be a range of options.
From memory I think that the debate over bowline vs. figure of eight goes way back to the days before harnesses because the the bowline could slip and compress your ribcage when used with a rope tied round the waist.
Finally, I can't think of any sailing situation where a rethreaded figure of eight would be superior to a bowline.
Sorry to go on at length but 'free spirited' climbers seem to find the idea of someone not using the same knot to tie on almost as offensive as another climber not using chalk powder to deface the natural environment.There, glad I got that off my chest!
bilbobaggins
N/A
[ QUOTE ]
I learned to climb using the bowline and have always stuck with it. Over the years people have tried to convert me to the re-threaded figure of eight.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is shaping up as the climbers' equivalent of the Rocna vs Whatsit anchors spat. And I'm sure there's a forum for that, too, somewhere.....
It was conclusively proven by the National Engineering Laboratory, in the 60s, that the 'double figure of eight' reduces the nominal breaking strength of a rope - both laid and core 'n sheath - significantly less than the 'bowline'; this has been re-confirmed over and again by other engineering labs worldwide.
So, those with an interest in getting the best performance from their expensive climbing rope when they go for that 'last great peel-off' will use the stronger knot for their attachment. Been there, done that ( Cenotaph Corner ), got the tattered T-shirt. Others can take the Darwin Award option - that's personal freedom! Mind you, 'only fools and 'orses....'
When I go up the mast, I invariably use a 'DFO8' for my safety line(s). That works for me. As for sheets, warps, springs and things - well, it hardly matters. I'll do whatever the owner wants.
Oh! I'd better re-phrase that, before I get some offers that yon<span style="color:red"> keithwalkerdanfoley </span> bunch take their red pens to....
Remember - '"Different ships, different bowlines."
I learned to climb using the bowline and have always stuck with it. Over the years people have tried to convert me to the re-threaded figure of eight.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is shaping up as the climbers' equivalent of the Rocna vs Whatsit anchors spat. And I'm sure there's a forum for that, too, somewhere.....
It was conclusively proven by the National Engineering Laboratory, in the 60s, that the 'double figure of eight' reduces the nominal breaking strength of a rope - both laid and core 'n sheath - significantly less than the 'bowline'; this has been re-confirmed over and again by other engineering labs worldwide.
So, those with an interest in getting the best performance from their expensive climbing rope when they go for that 'last great peel-off' will use the stronger knot for their attachment. Been there, done that ( Cenotaph Corner ), got the tattered T-shirt. Others can take the Darwin Award option - that's personal freedom! Mind you, 'only fools and 'orses....'
When I go up the mast, I invariably use a 'DFO8' for my safety line(s). That works for me. As for sheets, warps, springs and things - well, it hardly matters. I'll do whatever the owner wants.
Oh! I'd better re-phrase that, before I get some offers that yon<span style="color:red"> keithwalkerdanfoley </span> bunch take their red pens to....
Remember - '"Different ships, different bowlines."
G
Guest
Guest
Out of interest then .... what would you replace it with ?
[ QUOTE ]
I learned to climb using the bowline and have always stuck with it. Over the years people have tried to convert me to the re-threaded figure of eight. I've never been convinced because the small strength benefit is for me outweighed by the bowline being much faster to tie, easier to undo if it takes any weight and gives a more predictable length on the tail end.
The one time I would use a figure of eight in a climbing situation is in an indoor climbing wall where the 'trained' staff only know one knot and can't cope with the idea that there might conceivably be a range of options.
From memory I think that the debate over bowline vs. figure of eight goes way back to the days before harnesses because the the bowline could slip and compress your ribcage when used with a rope tied round the waist.
Finally, I can't think of any sailing situation where a rethreaded figure of eight would be superior to a bowline.
Sorry to go on at length but 'free spirited' climbers seem to find the idea of someone not using the same knot to tie on almost as offensive as another climber not using chalk powder to deface the natural environment.There, glad I got that off my chest!
[/ QUOTE ]
I too am a Bowline man ... having been taught as a cadet that it's the hitch / knot "jack of all trades" ....
But on to the "Bowline on a bight" ...... taught to us to lift people out of spaces etc. when bosuns chair / other not available ... What are you lot proposing as that items replacement ?
(Tell you what though ... I'd want to be well out of it before being lifted by a "BotB" - it hurts !!)
[ QUOTE ]
I learned to climb using the bowline and have always stuck with it. Over the years people have tried to convert me to the re-threaded figure of eight. I've never been convinced because the small strength benefit is for me outweighed by the bowline being much faster to tie, easier to undo if it takes any weight and gives a more predictable length on the tail end.
The one time I would use a figure of eight in a climbing situation is in an indoor climbing wall where the 'trained' staff only know one knot and can't cope with the idea that there might conceivably be a range of options.
From memory I think that the debate over bowline vs. figure of eight goes way back to the days before harnesses because the the bowline could slip and compress your ribcage when used with a rope tied round the waist.
Finally, I can't think of any sailing situation where a rethreaded figure of eight would be superior to a bowline.
Sorry to go on at length but 'free spirited' climbers seem to find the idea of someone not using the same knot to tie on almost as offensive as another climber not using chalk powder to deface the natural environment.There, glad I got that off my chest!
[/ QUOTE ]
I too am a Bowline man ... having been taught as a cadet that it's the hitch / knot "jack of all trades" ....
But on to the "Bowline on a bight" ...... taught to us to lift people out of spaces etc. when bosuns chair / other not available ... What are you lot proposing as that items replacement ?
(Tell you what though ... I'd want to be well out of it before being lifted by a "BotB" - it hurts !!)
whipper_snapper
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Finally, I can't think of any sailing situation where a rethreaded figure of eight would be superior to a bowline.
[/ QUOTE ]
I find it great on a boat for
Tying bungee
Tying tape in a loop. I sometimes make-up small tape strops for assorted purposes. In fact, horror of horrors, we used to make our own slings for climbing, the idea of buying stitched slings would have been baffling to us.
Finally, I can't think of any sailing situation where a rethreaded figure of eight would be superior to a bowline.
[/ QUOTE ]
I find it great on a boat for
Tying bungee
Tying tape in a loop. I sometimes make-up small tape strops for assorted purposes. In fact, horror of horrors, we used to make our own slings for climbing, the idea of buying stitched slings would have been baffling to us.
Oen
Well-Known Member
Hmmm,
The folk who taught me about mountain-y things (RAF MRT training and standards at RAF Valley) definitely preferred the re-threaded figure-of-eight, and I agree with the points made above about it being easy to inspect. I don't like the degree to which it snugs down at the start of an abseil, but that's a personal thing...
I also agree that it's a knot with some uses on a boat. One thing it does, is avoids the point loads on the bit of string which a bowline applies.
I use bowlines on the boat for all the same things everyone else does, without problems...
The folk who taught me about mountain-y things (RAF MRT training and standards at RAF Valley) definitely preferred the re-threaded figure-of-eight, and I agree with the points made above about it being easy to inspect. I don't like the degree to which it snugs down at the start of an abseil, but that's a personal thing...
I also agree that it's a knot with some uses on a boat. One thing it does, is avoids the point loads on the bit of string which a bowline applies.
I use bowlines on the boat for all the same things everyone else does, without problems...
johnkeith
Active Member
[ QUOTE ]
but 'free spirited' climbers seem to find the idea of someone not using the same knot to tie on almost as offensive as another climber not using chalk powder to deface the natural environment.
[/ QUOTE ]
...and so it proved! Heartening to see that there are still people out there who put great faith in things proven in laboratories in the sixties( all those drugs that were really safe: nicotine and brylcream make you a man and are completely safe; white middle aged men from the Empire are more intelligent than the rest of the world) I'm guessing that these would be the same labs that proved that unless we tie our fenders on to the same location and with the same knot as the forum hawks we are 'fools and 'orses....'.
How about a dispensation for forum newbies from unnecessarily acidic replies? It might even encourage more people to take part. Or am I missing the point - is the forum by invitation only for those who have fallen out of Cenotaph Corner and know the correct handshakes?
Fresh start anyone! - my comments were observations from my own experience. Anyway I've never climbed in a lab so wouldn't know the best knot!
Thanks to Whipper_Snapper for the idea about using the figure of eight for tying bungee - I've never found a satisfactory knot for this, so I'll try it next time.
but 'free spirited' climbers seem to find the idea of someone not using the same knot to tie on almost as offensive as another climber not using chalk powder to deface the natural environment.
[/ QUOTE ]
...and so it proved! Heartening to see that there are still people out there who put great faith in things proven in laboratories in the sixties( all those drugs that were really safe: nicotine and brylcream make you a man and are completely safe; white middle aged men from the Empire are more intelligent than the rest of the world) I'm guessing that these would be the same labs that proved that unless we tie our fenders on to the same location and with the same knot as the forum hawks we are 'fools and 'orses....'.
How about a dispensation for forum newbies from unnecessarily acidic replies? It might even encourage more people to take part. Or am I missing the point - is the forum by invitation only for those who have fallen out of Cenotaph Corner and know the correct handshakes?
Fresh start anyone! - my comments were observations from my own experience. Anyway I've never climbed in a lab so wouldn't know the best knot!
Thanks to Whipper_Snapper for the idea about using the figure of eight for tying bungee - I've never found a satisfactory knot for this, so I'll try it next time.
Cliveshep
Well-Known Member
Just to inject a little light-heartedness here, Michael Green in his little book "The Art of Coarse Sailing" refers to a knot he uses to tie up other people's boats - he called it a "time knot", lasting anything from 5 to 15 minutes. Anyone tried it?
jimi
Well-Known Member
erm John .. I think Bilbo was just being tongue in cheek .. if not .. I've probably fallen off more E5's and 6's than he has ;-)
bilbobaggins
N/A
'Ab-ing off' was one of the two known ways down from the top of some of the hard routes on the Etive Slabs, and a few other like places, before 'sticky rubber'. And even after that.....
Some of the big Italian - and Scottish - walls demanded the capacity to retreat in good order, and a higher degree of ropework was needed. Usually, the Germans/Austrians came up with it.
For those who now do abseiling as a necessity, the following URL might suggest some answers.....
Climbing - Tech Tip
For those wondering what possible yachting connection this might have, today's top racers - MacArthur, Golding, Le Cam et al - now use climber's gear and techniques to get up and down their masts, in relative safety, when needed. Many other less-prominent racers and cruisers are now learning exactly the same techniques, for the same reasons. And they work surprisingly well, with just a 'mom 'n pop' team.
This middle-aged ex-climber may have started learning sound ropes techniques way back in the 60's, but he learned them well, is still alive, and is still learning new trix.....
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Some of the big Italian - and Scottish - walls demanded the capacity to retreat in good order, and a higher degree of ropework was needed. Usually, the Germans/Austrians came up with it.
For those who now do abseiling as a necessity, the following URL might suggest some answers.....
Climbing - Tech Tip
For those wondering what possible yachting connection this might have, today's top racers - MacArthur, Golding, Le Cam et al - now use climber's gear and techniques to get up and down their masts, in relative safety, when needed. Many other less-prominent racers and cruisers are now learning exactly the same techniques, for the same reasons. And they work surprisingly well, with just a 'mom 'n pop' team.
This middle-aged ex-climber may have started learning sound ropes techniques way back in the 60's, but he learned them well, is still alive, and is still learning new trix.....
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
jimi
Well-Known Member
Are you still climbing, Bilbo?
