Bow thruster etiquette

[Roberto]

Good grief what marina are you in? I've never seen a single major mooring crash never mind "quite a few", with or without a bow thruster. We need to know so we can avoid the place!

I am not at all against bow thrusters, I do not have one but if they can make life easier then sure why not install one


Just to give an example of major crashes, major in the sense no wounded people but a lot of insurance companies work.

Pen Mané marina, river marina, quite narrow, pontoons perpendicular to the stream.
New 50'ft Hanse, moored side to, pushed by strong-ish tide against the end pontoon. He wants to leave, the bow thruster allows the bow to swing out a little, off he goes, as he points the nose outside of the floating dock the current increases, the BT is not enough any more, the boat comes with the side at an angle against the metal corner of the dock, nice hole in the hull and related accomodations to be rebuilt.

Another one coming into a dead end in port, wind astern, wants to try and turn the boat with the BT: no luck, BT on and on but the boat remains perpendicular to the wind and eventually falls against the bows (and anchors) of other boats at the end of the basin. Not a lot of damages, still place for a couple of insurance claims.

The worst in Gomera port: wind against the bows of some dozen boats moored Med-style stern to. Boat arrives, tries to turn into the wind with the BT, unable to, off he goes flat against the bows. People fender their boats and tell him to stop moving as one marina RIB is underway to help him out. He does not listen, bow thruster again, +rear gear, result bent pulpits, stanchions, a windvane bent in two, anchors pulling away chunks of GRP from his and other boats. He also made a second try. I was on the opposite side, someone told the story a German sailor looped a rope around his shrouds saying "now you ton't mof any mor". When the RIB eventually freed him he wanted to sail away but has been promptly stopped by half a dozen of angry boatowners.

I have the impression that if those people (whose knowledge of the BT could vastly be improved) were in a boat without BT, they would not have attempted such manouvres.
Likewise, if one sails an enginless boat he would think twice before acting the same as if he had an engine.

It's the risk of overconfidence, or as DeckHead says "poor seamanship" which *may* derive: you never hear people saying "I have no problems with mooring my boat as I have an engine", whereas it is not unheard of from some people talking about their thrusters.

 

[sailorman]

St Peter Port is a good spot.

I have rarely been in there without seeing one clash.

The finger berths are the worst. One chap got me on the way in and recorded a near miss on the way out.

 

[Searush]

I'm not sure how I could plan any maneuvers at all, if the plan had to work even if mechanical aids suddenly don't work -- i.e. reverse gear, bow thruster, and even engine. For that matter, halyards, sheets, blocks . . . Then we would just have to stay in dock and never go out

Seriously, of course, it's a good idea to plan maneuvers so that you've got a chance to do it another way, in case something goes wrong, but practically speaking if you've got an engine, you're going to dock in a way which really counts on the engine working; likewise with a thruster. It's a good idea to start the engine far enough ahead so that you know it's not going to start, in time to do something else. Likewise, it's a good idea to switch on the thruster and give it a test blip, while you're still well clear of the lock entrance, in case your thruster is at all dodgy

Did you not hear the "whoosh" just then?

His point was to approach slowly. As slowly as you can, as quickly as you must. That way it will be possible to fend off, accelerate slightly or go astern slowly to adjust your approach. Under control at all times.

BT's & powerful engines tend to encourage overconfidence & lazyness, thus when stuff goes wrong, it is difficult to extricate oneself. Trying to fend off with a leg or an arm at 3-4kts will lead to injuries, at under 1/2kt it is easy.

You can still use your BT if you can't manage without, but why depend on it & risk big problems with a fast approach?

 

[Leighb]

Did you not hear the "whoosh" just then?

His point was to approach slowly. As slowly as you can, as quickly as you must. That way it will be possible to fend off, accelerate slightly or go astern slowly to adjust your approach. Under control at all times.

BT's & powerful engines tend to encourage overconfidence & lazyness, thus when stuff goes wrong, it is difficult to extricate oneself. Trying to fend off with a leg or an arm at 3-4kts will lead to injuries, at under 1/2kt it is easy.

You can still use your BT if you can't manage without, but why depend on it & risk big problems with a fast approach?

Thank youSearush, exactly what I meant.

I am no-way saying that I never get things wrong, but if I have made inadvertent contact with other yacht, pontoon or whatever it happened slowly with little or no damage.

 

[Oscarpop]

As a Southerly owner, I know that Northshore put them in as a "free" item as the boats do not handle at all well with the huge top sides and twin rudders.

A friend of mine ( who also owns a Southerly) had his thruster pack up this year while in the Kiel canal.

Now I know that this chap is a very good sailor, and he said that the boat was almost unsteerable without the thruster.

Since then he added a third rudder to give himself a little prop wash.

On a secondary note, are you really that concerned with the sound of a thruster?
I think possibly you need to go out more, its part of modern sailing for some of us. The debate still rages on as to whether we are proper sailors unless we only use block and tackle/ sextants/ hemp rope etc.

Modern progress has allowed sailing to develop, thus nowadays we have electronic aids.
It brings more people into a lifestyle that would otherwise be in decline.

It also allows those of us with modern aids to sailing, to sail away from those total p*nis heads who still bang on about their lack of any modern gizmos

 

[scottie]

As the OP I was trying to put over a point that like many other things in life one persons gain can be at another's disadvantage. I do not question the seamanship of bow thrusters but I have had the experience of being litteraly pushed around by excessive and I would say selfish over use and raised the question .
We have had many posts on wash ,running gennies ,overhanging pushpits/ anchors in marinas ,boats tacking in narrow channels etc it would seem that what we do is always considerate and necessary whilst others are selfish and thoughtless sounds like life.

 

[lw395]

Did you not hear the "whoosh" just then?

His point was to approach slowly. As slowly as you can, as quickly as you must. That way it will be possible to fend off, accelerate slightly or go astern slowly to adjust your approach. Under control at all times.

BT's & powerful engines tend to encourage overconfidence & lazyness, thus when stuff goes wrong, it is difficult to extricate oneself. Trying to fend off with a leg or an arm at 3-4kts will lead to injuries, at under 1/2kt it is easy.

You can still use your BT if you can't manage without, but why depend on it & risk big problems with a fast approach?

Used correctly, a bow thruster allows you to go slower, as unlike a rudder it is not dependent on boatspeed to give thrust.
It gives you some steering when you have no flow over the rudder, when the boat is not moving through the water. That is the point where most people lose control, due to being overcautious, losing speed too early, so that the turning moment of the rudder reduces and is defeated by the turning moment of the wind on the bow or whatever.
Used in conjunction with good throttle and rudder control it is a great addition to some boats.
Like any tool there are good and bad ways of using it.

Normally I find most of the times I bail out of approaching a tricky mooring it is because I've slowed too much, too early, so the wind takes charge and I have to go around again and come in a little faster, or find another berth.

 

[Searush]

Used correctly, a bow thruster allows you to go slower, as unlike a rudder it is not dependent on boatspeed to give thrust.
It gives you some steering when you have no flow over the rudder, when the boat is not moving through the water. That is the point where most people lose control, due to being overcautious, losing speed too early, so that the turning moment of the rudder reduces and is defeated by the turning moment of the wind on the bow or whatever.
Used in conjunction with good throttle and rudder control it is a great addition to some boats.
Like any tool there are good and bad ways of using it.

Normally I find most of the times I bail out of approaching a tricky mooring it is because I've slowed too much, too early, so the wind takes charge and I have to go around again and come in a little faster, or find another berth.

My whole point is that (unless you have a silly twin rudder arrangement) at the point where you have stopped too soon, a short, sharp blast on the engine will place the boat exactly where you want it. You can choose to use or counteract the known propwalk with the necessary propwash. If a little too fast, much the same can be done in revese without the prop wash.

I never get my berth approach exactly right cos conditions are always different (quelle surprise!) but a slow approach, adjusted as necessary will put the boat exactly where I want it. Or I can abort & go round again, even if it means reversing out & a 3 point turn to get back into open water for a fresh approach.

But I only have a 32'6" center cockpit Ketch with high windage rather like a Colvic Countess (but slimmer! )

 

[johnalison]

I have a friend with a 45' centre-cockpit sailing boat. He has two wonky legs and his wife is willing but not very boaty. I can well understand his willingness to use a bow-thruster, especially when approaching a windward berth, or manouevring astern into a box, to allow comfortable access to shore.

On the other hand, these machines often make a penetrating noise. Sailing is essentially a very quiet sport and even in harbout there has traditionally only been the occasional chug of someone's motor as they come and go. There seem to be some people who are immune to the effect of their own noise and other peoples'. I think the OP was only asking that these people should learn to moderate their use of noisy equipment, especially in situations where even average seamanship would make it unnecessary.

 

[Quandary]

The thrust can affect other boats quite dramatically at times especially if tight packed and a smooths boat next to a powerful thruster

Interested to hear quandaries take on this

Have you tried to find your dummy in a wet day at ardrishaig?

I am reluctant to comment on this subject as I have never owned a boat with a bow thruster though I have wrestled with the shorelines of many of them. The locks are generally straight in and straight out with no need for reversing and the wind usually goes straight up or straight down the canal so they seem mainly to be used as a means of attracting attention. I have 'piloted' quite a variety of boats through and there are some big mobos that definitely need to use them even when going in a straight line but I am not sure of their function in a boat with a fin keel.

'Boots' is right about Ardrishaig, heaven on earth if it ever stopped raining.

 

[lw395]

I have a friend with a 45' centre-cockpit sailing boat. He has two wonky legs and his wife is willing but not very boaty. I can well understand his willingness to use a bow-thruster, especially when approaching a windward berth, or manouevring astern into a box, to allow comfortable access to shore.

On the other hand, these machines often make a penetrating noise. Sailing is essentially a very quiet sport and even in harbout there has traditionally only been the occasional chug of someone's motor as they come and go. There seem to be some people who are immune to the effect of their own noise and other peoples'. I think the OP was only asking that these people should learn to moderate their use of noisy equipment, especially in situations where even average seamanship would make it unnecessary.

I agree, I would be reluctant to use one at night.
But few people seem to able to arrive or depart quietly anyway.
I can't recall ever being annoyed by a bow thruster (apart from a Wightlink one!), and there are plenty of things that annoy me in harbour, generators, smoky barbecues, sailing school louts, noisy halyards etc etc.
I've even been annoyed by being woken by people transiting my foredeck with dogs at 7AM, but I did come round to the idea the Alsatian was quite sweet really!
I'd say bow thrusters are well down the list, below using the outboard to go 100yds in a quiet place like the Yealm on a calm day.

I'd add electric dinghy inflators to the hate list.

Yachts in harbour are a strange idea, more people per sq metre than would be allowed in a slum. No wonder we're driven to drink!

 

[35mm]

I don't have or need bow thrusters on my current boat at only 20', and I remember when they only existed on large ships and everyone else got by with out them. However, I appreciate they can be useful and as others have said, very useful on motor boats that are difficult directionally at slow speeds. Yachts with lifting keels lifted are often a bit difficult to steer especially in reverse, but lowering the keel fixes that. The OP and others have touched on what this thread is really about though. Not whether BT's are right or wrong, but how they are used by some numpties. I have seen and heard yachts using them completely unnecessarily on various occasions. Even when anchoring in plenty of space. They are noisy and can disturb other people's enjoyment. So don't use them unless you actually need to when you are close to other boats and especially at night.

 

[Phill Barnes]

I am dazed by the emotion that is engendered amongst some by th use of a bow thrusters, Surely no-one today thinks that they are a BAD Idea! I know that the purists will insist that seamanship is the only answer and I don't disagree with the thought that skill is the first answer, but what about the situation when it all goes wrong in a Marina or LOCK and the damage runs into squillions!!! Where is your get out of Gaol Card! - I sugghest that the complainant stops looking at the spec of dust in someone else's eye and starts to think about the plank in his own! Critisism is easy requiering no skill at all; getting it right every time in a tight space no matter what the conditions requires saintly abilities so I suggest the purists SHUTs UP and Stops being a bore!!!!!!!!!

 

[haydude]

On the other hand, these machines often make a penetrating noise. Sailing is essentially a very quiet sport and even in harbout there has traditionally only been the occasional chug of someone's motor as they come and go. There seem to be some people who are immune to the effect of their own noise and other peoples'. I think the OP was only asking that these people should learn to moderate their use of noisy equipment, especially in situations where even average seamanship would make it unnecessary.

The INTOLERANCE of some people towards their neighbours for silly matters like "bow thrusters noise" in this country never ends surprising me. It must be an English thing, because I have never experienced the same anywhere else.

It is amazing that a whole debate is about a noise which is only heard occasionally and for a few seconds at a time even in the busiest Solent marinas and that there is even people suggesting that even so, one should limit their use. Guys, you outta get a life!

 

[35mm]

The INTOLERANCE of some people towards their neighbours for silly matters like "bow thrusters noise" in this country never ends surprising me. It must be an English thing, because I have never experienced the same anywhere else.

It is amazing that a whole debate is about a noise which is only heard occasionally and for a few seconds at a time even in the busiest Solent marinas and that there is even people suggesting that even so, one should limit their use. Guys, you outta get a life!

I think the point is when they are used unnecessarily, with out consideration for others. I'll give you an example. Back in August we'd settled for the night in a little, local anchorage where there were a few other boats with their anchor lights glistening on the still, tranquil water. On my boat we stayed up drinking in the cockpit until about 2am, making sure to keep the noise down so as to not disturb others. In comes a 35(ish)' yacht. You could hardly hear the engine, over the gentle splash of water from the exhaust. It glided quietly around for a short time before deciding to anchor in a clear area in the middle of everyone else. They stopped at 90° to the other anchored boats, then, "BUZZZZZZZ BUZZZ BUZZ BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZ BUZZZ BUZZZ", bellowed out from it's thrusters as they pirouetted to line them selves up , followed by shouting from cockpit to bow and back again. Then, "CLANK CLANK CLANK CLANK CLANK CLANK CLANK CLANK CLANK".... "BUZZZZ BUZZZ BUZZZZZZ".... "CLANK CLANK CLANK CLANK CLANK". Using the thrusters was completely unnecessary as they had plenty of room to manoeuvre with the rudder. They then set about having a nightcap in the cockpit with raised voices and explosions of raucous laughter. Bow thrusters are fine. Most of the people who use them are fine. It's just that some boaties in general don't have much consideration for others, and some of them have bow thrusters which they seem to like to use just for the shear hell of it.

 

[ytd]

I wish I had a bow thruster. Our bow gets blown off badly in any cross wind so I have to approach marina berths at about 3 kts. Any slower and you have no steering. This leads to other owners screaming at me to slow down. I'd happily replace that screaming with bowthruster noise.

This berthing speed has led to the odd accident over the years. Especially reversing when skippers are told to stop so they push the throttle further into reverse.

 

[Otter]

The INTOLERANCE of some people towards their neighbours for silly matters like "bow thrusters noise" in this country never ends surprising me. It must be an English thing, because I have never experienced the same anywhere else.

It is amazing that a whole debate is about a noise which is only heard occasionally and for a few seconds at a time even in the busiest Solent marinas and that there is even people suggesting that even so, one should limit their use. Guys, you outta get a life!

+1

 

[Jamesuk]

Further to the ongoing thread regarding bow thrusters this is not a critism of have them but I have been a bit peeved when people use them in every lock in a canal to position their boat regardless of the effect on the boat along side rather than adjust their lines the noise is accentuated in empty locks just to add insult to injury
Ps crinan canal has 14? Locks

We have a 2 speed 20hp Side Power thruster, it is a thing of beauty when it is running. Generally tho we dont use it.

 

[Quandary]

We live in a village in a house beside one of the locks in the Crinan Canal, the yachts that do not have or do not use their bow thrusters can sneak by unnoticed but we can hear the others in the kitchen at the back of the house with the radio on so we have time to inspect them.
It is essential to have and frequently use a bow thruster if you are to attract the attention you deserve. Their advantages for berthing are questionable, the boats that use them frequently for this purpose as well seem to the ones that have most problems getting close to the berth but they will have a good audience to watch them do it.

 

[Modulation]

I think they are great because the sound they make can be heard a long way off. This gives you ample time to go on deck and prepare for a collision.

+1 . I always stick my head up when i hear one. god they do make an awful sound!
But it does give a chance to get the fenders out.
BTW does anyone remember that mobo that went up in flames in Titchmarsh years ago? I seem to remember that the skipper was gunning the thruster in fairly strong winds and suddenly a lot of smoke appeared. Never seen a fire take hold so quickly - it put me off bow thrusters for life - tho' i think the fault was probably undersized cabling which the skippe rwouldn't have been aware of