Bought a Never splashed Colvic Countess 33 on eBay, Looking for infos

[Teko]

I 'll just add. Late last year.(starting with a full tank) I mototerd from the same marina as Greg. The full length of portsmouth harbour over to osbourne bay then up The madina to The folly. Then headed straight back over to Portsmouth where I filled the take up again at gosport marina.

£6 was all I was able to get back in the tank

 

[pvb]

......engine hours is hardly ever the reason to service a boat engine it’s done more as a preventative measure yearly due to the harsh environment a boat engine lives in ....

This "harsh environment" thing is often quoted, but is it really true? Boat engines are usually enclosed in a dry engine compartment, with adequate ventilation. Cooling systems ensure that the engine never gets excessively hot. In contrast, car/van/truck engines live in a far more hostile environment - wide open to the ingress of rain, salt spray from winter roads, etc.

 

[GregOddity]

Numbers are just such a nuisance aren't they?

That article you point at is all waffle. Go on and read their test of two identical boats and be impressed. And then notice that the conventional drive boat is substantially heavier and has a year's fouling on her hull vs. the hybrid's just launched clean bottom. The figures are just what I'd expect if they's both had the same engines. If you can find a proper description of how you're supposed to manage the 'power cycling' wrt battery capacity I'd love to see it.

Then you can look at this one, I’m sure they know nothing about the Math or even about motors.

BARRUS
https://www.barrus.co.uk/divisions/special-products/our-products/hybrid-propulsion/

 

[GregOddity]

I can’t see the maintenance costs being any different to running a hybrid system to a normal diesel, engine hours is hardly ever the reason to service a boat engine it’s done more as a preventative measure yearly due to the harsh environment a boat engine lives in and lack of use causes more problems than anything, add in electric motor, batteries and generators in a marine environment and the maintenance will be worse than a conventional set up.
You say a weekends motoring in the Solent will cost so much but for that you have to be motoring and not sailing more than likely due to a lack of wind which will mean you’ll be running the engine as a generator in that situation as well so no saving there at all over a conventional set up.
I’m interested to see how you get on but I think the calculations are very biased/best case weighted to the hybrid system.

I do agree with the points you make. On maintenance costs and the running of the engine the costs will be the same plus the costs of the maintenance of the electrical part of the Hybrid drive system.
On a no wind situation you are back on an engine. Be that Electrical or Diesel.
I am biased to the Hybrid for a couple of reasons. First a parallel drive gives redundancy as you have always a motor you can use as a back up in an emergency. Second and the most important of all the reasons available is the Price of a Diesel Marine Lump. 5k you can buy a good car for. For a sailboat you barely get a motor.
Cost IS the factor that brings me directly to a Hybrid. A second-hand car with a simple engine I can get very cheap but let’s say £1000 add to that 1525 Euros and you got a marine engine. Now you add an electric motor and you got a Hybrid that can-do engine Cycling with a small battery bank. You can then add as many batteries as you can afford or wish or want.
The idea being that since we’re going for the Hybrid why not try and get the 40 m I need to get out of Gosport and back on battery alone? We still can have full power anytime we wish or even recharge the batteries should we need. But if we could keep it only for battery that would be Ideal with recharge in harbour.

 

[GregOddity]

I 'll just add. Late last year.(starting with a full tank) I mototerd from the same marina as Greg. The full length of portsmouth harbour over to osbourne bay then up The madina to The folly. Then headed straight back over to Portsmouth where I filled the take up again at gosport marina.

£6 was all I was able to get back in the tank

I don’t disagree at all with that figure, but I did tank on Flapjack and was able to pump £ 22 the same way to Cowes and back just after Christmas. It depends on the tides and engine so these figures are going to change for everyone involved. Plus, we did not have an iota of wind the whole time. I tanked In Gosport. Mind you we did motor up the river in Cowes as well.

 

[GregOddity]

This "harsh environment" thing is often quoted, but is it really true? Boat engines are usually enclosed in a dry engine compartment, with adequate ventilation. Cooling systems ensure that the engine never gets excessively hot. In contrast, car/van/truck engines live in a far more hostile environment - wide open to the ingress of rain, salt spray from winter roads, etc.

I tend to share the same view. The aggression on a car engine or van is way more then in a marine engine unless you’re dousing it with salt water every day. The motorways are salted and that all goes everywhere in the engine compartment. Still parts are cheaper and so is service. Funny enough they last much longer then marine engines and resist much more aggression. (especially the ones my brother drives)

 

[PaulRainbow]

You keep waffling about 40 minutes run time in and out of Gosport, but you also keep waffling about blue water cruising.

a) Has Gosport become a bluewater haven ?

b) If not, and you really do go blue water cruising, how's the hybrid setup going to perform ocean sailing ?

 

[GregOddity]

You keep waffling about 40 minutes run time in and out of Gosport, but you also keep waffling about blue water cruising.

a) Has Gosport become a bluewater haven ?

b) If not, and you really do go blue water cruising, how's the hybrid setup going to perform ocean sailing ?

a) C’mon Paul its all about the meaning of the written word. Gosport in this case is but an example.
b) On Blue water sailing we use the above Gosport example and we have 20 m for any harbour we may need to get in or out of anywhere in the world. Then the wind will carry us. Should we need to recharge the batteries over long distances we have the running the engine or wait till we cross the pond whatever fits your fancy.
c) The real important thing about the Hybrid being that you can run it at low speeds more efficiently then any diesel. Better 2 knots then wait for the wind I guess type of thing. But should we get bored? Start the diesel and off we go.

Funny enough you’re wrong. I don’t waffle a lot I’m more of a Pancake type of guy. But I do Pancake a LOT. Here’s some of them Oatmeal to American Fluffy pancakes.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Then you can look at this one, I’m sure they know nothing about the Math or even about motors.

BARRUS
https://www.barrus.co.uk/divisions/special-products/our-products/hybrid-propulsion/

No maths there, or a great deal of effort in trying to sell it either.

Your earlier link to Hybrid Marine took me to a page where the site's owner mentions that he co-authored with Nigel Calder, about whose Malo you may have heard. Here's a link to an article with a bit from Mr Calder which shows that he's had a bit of a rethink.

https://www.yachtingmagazine.com/sea-greener#page-11

But have a read through this from our own forums, and in particular look at the fuel consumption graph in post 15. Note the low consumption when the engine isn't working too hard. And then reflect on Hybrid-Marine's whole mantra basing their 'power cycling' on the alleged inefficiency of a diesel when it's not at full power. Do you realise what his concept of 'power cycling actually means? It's all bolleaux mate.

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...ectric-propulsion&highlight=nigel+calder+malo

 

[seaangler23]

This "harsh environment" thing is often quoted, but is it really true? Boat engines are usually enclosed in a dry engine compartment, with adequate ventilation. Cooling systems ensure that the engine never gets excessively hot. In contrast, car/van/truck engines live in a far more hostile environment - wide open to the ingress of rain, salt spray from winter roads, etc.

How many vehicle engines are fully covered in paint then still rust, shows what a nasty environment the bilge is, an untreated engine wouldn’t last long in a boat

 

[PaulRainbow]

How many vehicle engines are fully covered in paint then still rust, shows what a nasty environment the bilge is, an untreated engine wouldn’t last long in a boat

Car engines go rusty.

Not sure about your bilges, but mine don'e have any road salt in them, in fact, no salt at all. My engine has been sitting in it cupboard since 1980, looks a hell of a lot cleaner than my car or van engines.

 

[PaulRainbow]

a) C’mon Paul its all about the meaning of the written word. Gosport in this case is but an example.
b) On Blue water sailing we use the above Gosport example and we have 20 m for any harbour we may need to get in or out of anywhere in the world. Then the wind will carry us. Should we need to recharge the batteries over long distances we have the running the engine or wait till we cross the pond whatever fits your fancy.

So, you're going to run a 1.9 litre 75hp engine to charge the batteries, that's efficient, not.

c) The real important thing about the Hybrid being that you can run it at low speeds more efficiently then any diesel. Better 2 knots then wait for the wind I guess type of thing. But should we get bored? Start the diesel and off we go.

That's just utter nonsense Greg. How you figure using a Golf engine to run a generator to charge batteries or push the boat along via an electric motor shows, without a shadow of doubt, you don't have a clue what you're talking about here, sorry.

If you really wanted low build cost, low maintenance, economical running, you'd just marinise a low cost car engine and stick a gearbox on it.

Out of interest, exactly which Golf engine are you going to use ?

 

[pvb]

How many vehicle engines are fully covered in paint then still rust, shows what a nasty environment the bilge is, an untreated engine wouldn’t last long in a boat

My bilge is clean and dry.

 

[NormanB]

My bilge is clean and dry.

Try licking it - bet it tastes of salt.?

 

[GregOddity]

So, you're going to run a 1.9 litre 75hp engine to charge the batteries, that's efficient, not.



That's just utter nonsense Greg. How you figure using a Golf engine to run a generator, to charge batteries, or push the boat along via an electric motor shoes, without a shadow of doubt, you don't have a clue what you're talking about here, sorry.

If you really wanted low build cost, low maintenance, economical running, you'd just marinise a low cost car engine and stick a gearbox on it.

Out of interest, exactly which Golf engine are you going to use ?

There’s really ample choice on the engine. Mercedes is more expensive in parts but you can find it anywhere in Germany for the next 100 years then there’s VW with cheaper prices and parts available in Germany for the next 1000 years. We’re not decided yet on the engine or any part. We still have 3 different options between engine, marinization kits. It’s not only a question of which engine but how everything will go together at what prices and ease of fabrication.
Volkswagen Golf or Passat are the most commonly used.

That's just utter nonsense Greg. How you figure using a Golf engine to run a generator, to charge batteries, or push the boat along via an electric motor shoes, without a shadow of doubt, you don't have a clue what you're talking about here, sorry.

That's actually the simple part Paul. If you look it up on the Barrus website you will find a few examples for sale and they pretty much explain all the nitty gritty, same on Beta and Volvo as they all sell a Hybrid solution that can be in series or in parallel. There’re plenty more offering Hybrid drives and quite a few companies have come up on the last few years in the Netherlands and Germany and France. There are fewer for some reason in the UK which is curious.

So, you're going to run a 1.9 litre 75hp engine to charge the batteries, that's efficient, not.

You understanding of the concept of efficiency is in a deficient form on that statement. Energy wise it’s not more efficient. But again, neither are diesel motors when compared to electric motors and in fact Hydrocarbon technology is deemed the most inefficient form of energy as we only manage to harness a small percentage of the energy created.
But the concept of energy efficiency has more parameters namely PRICE. So, say I spend 3k less than buying a Marine engine and my solution spends 20% more fuel then a marine engine which is then more efficient? the one I spend £5/6 K on or the one that cost 3 k and I will rarely use?


Very Efficient MARINE engine £5/6 k = £20 for a day sailing around the Solent
Very Inefficient marinized engine 3k (+20% consumption) = £24 for a day sailing around the Solent

 

[Skylark]

After 45 years in mechanical engineering I’ve learned a new definition of efficiency

One of the major market drivers for automotive hybrid drives is political/environmental. I personally think that the propagandists have it wrong but that’s a different story.

The Barrus web page talks about a slow start since 2007 but now racing towards new applications. There doesn’t seem to be much evidence in support of that claim. I was at the 2015 Seawork exhibition so remember their display. Not a lot seems to have come from that.

The earlier link to the hybrid drive website showed some questionable claims, too. One valid point was that it’s inefficient to run a high output power engine at low load. Yet Greg wants to use a 75hp engine on a 33ft sailing boat and claims this is efficient as it will be a cheap second hand car engine. Let’s also remember that the car engine will rev to about 4,500 rpm. A marine engine matched to this size boat and its propeller via the gearbox is likely to be a very different arrangement. This will not be by accident, it will be because it’s been optimised over the years.

It would probably be wise to have an initial discussion with an insurance company, too. Your earlier post with pictures of damage during marina close quarters manoeuvring should be a salutary lesson.

 

[burgundyben]

as we only manage to harness a small percentage of the energy created.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

 

[Graham_Wright]

I'm getting worried. Greg- you have the same hull as I. Ian Anderson recommended my 1.5 litre 36 hp BMC diesel. Should I change?

 

[pvb]

Try licking it - bet it tastes of salt.��

It doesn't!

 

[GregOddity]

After 45 years in mechanical engineering I’ve learned a new definition of efficiency

One of the major market drivers for automotive hybrid drives is political/environmental. I personally think that the propagandists have it wrong but that’s a different story.

The Barrus web page talks about a slow start since 2007 but now racing towards new applications. There doesn’t seem to be much evidence in support of that claim. I was at the 2015 Seawork exhibition so remember their display. Not a lot seems to have come from that.

The earlier link to the hybrid drive website showed some questionable claims, too. One valid point was that it’s inefficient to run a high output power engine at low load. Yet Greg wants to use a 75hp engine on a 33ft sailing boat and claims this is efficient as it will be a cheap second hand car engine. Let’s also remember that the car engine will rev to about 4,500 rpm. A marine engine matched to this size boat and its propeller via the gearbox is likely to be a very different arrangement. This will not be by accident, it will be because it’s been optimised over the years.

It would probably be wise to have an initial discussion with an insurance company, too. Your earlier post with pictures of damage during marina close quarters manoeuvring should be a salutary lesson.

Well you learn something every day. Did your read about the part in which I say that we aim for 40m on battery power to get in and out of harbour and the diesel is a BACK UP to the system? I could even put a generator into that right of the shelf as what we intend is 40m on battery power. This all discussion on the diesel is a bit baffling. What we want is the mains to charge the batteries.

I don't dispute at all that Marine engines have been optimised over the years, for mostly Price. But here's the thing, 6k of relative efficiency does not stand up to scrutiny when compared to 3k of a slightly worse efficiency. How many years and hours of use must I use my power train until it actually pays to change to a Marine engine especially due to the fact that PRIMARY propulsion will be ELECTRIC to come in and out of harbour? it's a 3K differential. does that justify buying a Marine engine? NOPE! Parts will be cheaper, as in MUCH cheaper. If I need to replace the whole engine, I’m again looking at between £500 to £800. And for us the PRIMARY use is to use it as a gen unit IF needed.

Very valid point about the insurance as we have indeed learned not to trust ANY engine. Especially a mechanical one. AS for the systems on board they will all be inspected and signed for. Even the chain plates for the rigging are coded.

I tend not to turn on the engine if the wind dies down. It took me 2 hours last time I was out on Selkie to make it to Portsmouth where I switched on the outboard to make the entry. Just a wisp of wind and the current. But was a beautiful day and I had a great time. I do need a fishing pole on board as I could have been fishing for those 2 hours.
As for the claims, you’re better qualified to delve into them then I am. I’m looking at the economics and 3k is a LOT better then 6k.

One of the major market drivers for automotive hybrid drives is political/environmental. I personally think that the propagandists have it wrong but that’s a different story.

I don’t actually disagree with that opinion. It is one of the drivers and one we must look into. Our dependency of fossil fuels is slowly destroying the planet and we have to abandon them. Having said that, my reasons are also biased because they are purely economics. I’m willing to go through the trouble and joy of building a hybrid so that I don’t have to shell out 6K and can run on an Electric motor.