Bought a Never splashed Colvic Countess 33 on eBay, Looking for infos

[Scotsailor]

75 hp in a 22 foot Newbridge boat is ridiculous … I had a Newbridge Virgo Voyager and 9 up was great

 

[GregOddity]

Greg

I have a Westerly Fulmar, which is 32ft and weighs 5½ tons in normal loaded trim. The original engine was 24Hp and has been re-engined with 28Hp. I very rarely use full revs and cruise at about 2,200 rpm compared to full revs of 3,400 rpm. The later Westerly Storm was 33ft and was fitted with only a 18Hp engine.

If you are intending to sail mainly, rather than motor, then do fit a folding propellor. Your boat speed will increase by about ½ to ¾ of a knot. Over long distances that makes a significant increase in performance and shorten you sailing days or enable longer distances to be attempted. If you sail across the pond, then you will cut days off your arrival time.

Your boat will probably weigh between 9 and 10 tons. The idea of a 75Hp engine sounds too large even if used solely for power generation. I would suggest not looking at car engines, but small industrial units made by Kubuto or Misubushi. They will be lighter, which is why they are used by many marine engine companies as a base unit. Parts are also widely available around the world, but some older car engine parts probably will not.

We are indeed thinking of that half a knot that you can gain with a folding prop over long distances. It does make a difference. I’m not one for racing but having sailed on a J95 and being the fastest boat on the Solent that day now I do find myself trimming my sails quite a lot in the quest for that elusive half knot more. Across the pond trips come to mind.
This Engine is still very easy to find parts for since its from 2007 and its cheap. Downside is the weight but going electric means a few hundred litters less of fuel on board really so it all ends up about the same weight wise.
We did look at smaller engines but the prices were a bit more then we wished for. Maybe we can still find one. We’re still looking.

 

[GregOddity]

75 hp in a 22 foot Newbridge boat is ridiculous … I had a Newbridge Virgo Voyager and 9 up was great

MY bad, not on Selkie. But on Oddity. Selkie is just the "floating caravan/base" for building Oddity. We have a Long shaft outboard 5HP and sporadicaly we fit the 8hp if we know we're going to come in against the tide.

 

[GregOddity]

I think what he's doing is planning to use a cheap secondhand car engine. Not a bad plan and very doable.

There must be some pretty small and fairly light units from contemporary cars which will certainly be a bit more fuel efficient than most contemporary small marine diesels. They're not going to be particularly happy running at low rpms day in day out, but as long as people keep crashing cars there will always be cheap spares around. Whether the associated electronics are quite what you want on a boat will be food for another few dozen posts...

ps. This is from someone who's putting a Ford EcoBoost 1 litre engine into a Land Rover, so I do feel some sympathy.

Pretty much sums it up. I don’t get all the outcry but off course we’re all entitle to our own opinions. Shhh don't get sarted on that I was trying to get opinions about the prop.

 

[GregOddity]

There can be no economic benefit or logical argument for a diesel electric hybrid drive in a small yacht. UNLESS you inherited all the equipment necessary for no cost. I think there is a case for electric drive alone if it meets your needs (see Sailing UMA on YT).

There can be no doubt it is an interesting technical exercise but to then translate that into reality at your cost is indulgent and foolhardy.

Regenerating electrical power on a small (slow) monohull via the trailing prop is minimal and insignificant to needs.

There can and there is. A LUMP of cast metal at 6k a pop plus bits and pieces more expensive then the price of Unobtanium from the Planet Pandora justifies it completely.
Sailing UMA did a purely electrical drive but failed at installing enough battery power to make it really usable and had no regeneration on board.
We’re going to have some Solar generation but we’re counting on starting the engine for longer runs so we don’t deplete batteries. 2 Examples: Lisbon coming out into the Ocean it’s a 2-hour thing and winds can be pretty messy because of the south cliffs and where we have Selkie moored that takes 45m to reach Gosport. At both these places its seriously busy and you do need to be able manoeuvre at short quarters and need motor. In Lisbon you will also need motor to sail out in safety because of swell /wind/ current.

I have not yet looked properly at regeneration with prop to have any form of opinion that matters. Some do it but that does not make it a good thing. We’re looking at advantages and disadvantages of everything and if we have a fixed prop that can be used for regeneration and we can regenerate a good amount its certainly better then paying 3k for a small prop generator you can hang on your transom. We may have the prop and not the 3k. Its all about economics.

 

[GregOddity]

I'm sorely tempted to use my favourite word "nonsense"

People who have actual, real, boats, and who use them are giving some real World figures, but on planet Greg that counts for nothing.

I'll add my figures. My boat is 35 feet and weighs around 10 tons. It is fitted with an old tech 42hp diesel engine, a Mercedes OM636. It will push the boat along happily at 1600-1800 RPM. If i run it anywhere near full speed the prop cavitiates and it starts to bury the stern, classic case of overpowering the boat and trying to exceed hull speed (as reported by others here).

I'd like to see some of Gregs figures for this 75-85hp engine/generator for charging the batteries. How does one get all of the power that you could generate from such a large engine into the batteries ? Magic ? Mirrors ?

A small, 3 cylinder, 25hp engine, running at just 1500 RPM will run a 13kw 240v AC gernerator. That's enough electricity for a small house.

How much does the 75HP engine, gearbox, generator and attendant batteries weigh ?

How much weight does 750 L of fuel weight?

 

[Iain C]

Ye gods. Just noticed this thread was resurrected after I'd last checked out about a year ago. Pretty sure it had gone diesel electric is the way, no it isn't, a 300Tdi is the way as it needs to be simple, now we're back to diesel electric and waaaaay too much power.

I cannot believe that you are seriously considering a DIY diesel electric system for a blue water boat, you really need to apply the KISS principle here if that's your intended use. There's an electric narrow boat based near me which is apparently nothing but trouble, and the worst that can happen there is you drift a few metres and then bang some stakes into the bank you've just nudged and put the kettle on.

Why don't you investigate a simple engine that will run off chip fat or similar? Or just installing a non-turbo VW diesel if that's the engine you want...lots of the Arvor range use them. It sounds like even with the hybrid system the diesel is waaaay to large...remember diesels like to be worked fairly hard, if it's ticking over with no load you'll have a world of problems.

What exactly do you need gigawatts of electrical power (non-propulsion) for anyway? A competent skipper will manage the boat so power use is minimised anyway...and if what you need all that power for is so vital what will you do when it inevitably goes wrong in the multiple ways that a complex system can?

My own boat is 33'10" overall, and whilst undoubtedly lighter than Odyssey, relies on a 19hp Volvo, which, to be honest, is perfectly adequate.

 

[GregOddity]

I'm sorely tempted to use my favourite word "nonsense"

People who have actual, real, boats, and who use them are giving some real World figures, but on planet Greg that counts for nothing.

I'll add my figures. My boat is 35 feet and weighs around 10 tons. It is fitted with an old tech 42hp diesel engine, a Mercedes OM636. It will push the boat along happily at 1600-1800 RPM. If i run it anywhere near full speed the prop cavitiates and it starts to bury the stern, classic case of overpowering the boat and trying to exceed hull speed (as reported by others here).

I'd like to see some of Gregs figures for this 75-85hp engine/generator for charging the batteries. How does one get all of the power that you could generate from such a large engine into the batteries ? Magic ? Mirrors ?

A small, 3 cylinder, 25hp engine, running at just 1500 RPM will run a 13kw 240v AC gernerator. That's enough electricity for a small house.

How much does the 75HP engine, gearbox, generator and attendant batteries weigh ?

Paul this all exercise is about economics, we did not find a small 3 cylinder motor that had a price we like. We did find one that we can use. What if it is overpowered? is that really such a problem? we're not intending to cavitate the prop by using 5k revs so to be able to use it as propulsion we have to gear it down. Our economics work for US especially since we don't have and would NOT spend 5k on a LUMP Which is what marine engines are. We ARE going Diesel Electric and someday fully Electric and I cannot wait for that day.
Having said that you are welcome to BELIEVE in your diesel propulsion, to be happy you have it and use it to your heart content.
We’re still going Diesel Electric till we can go Electric.

 

[GregOddity]

Ye gods. Just noticed this thread was resurrected after I'd last checked out about a year ago. Pretty sure it had gone diesel electric is the way, no it isn't, a 300Tdi is the way as it needs to be simple, now we're back to diesel electric and waaaaay too much power.

I cannot believe that you are seriously considering a DIY diesel electric system for a blue water boat, you really need to apply the KISS principle here if that's your intended use. There's an electric narrow boat based near me which is apparently nothing but trouble, and the worst that can happen there is you drift a few metres and then bang some stakes into the bank you've just nudged and put the kettle on.

Why don't you investigate a simple engine that will run off chip fat or similar? Or just installing a non-turbo VW diesel if that's the engine you want...lots of the Arvor range use them. It sounds like even with the hybrid system the diesel is waaaay to large...remember diesels like to be worked fairly hard, if it's ticking over with no load you'll have a world of problems.

What exactly do you need gigawatts of electrical power (non-propulsion) for anyway? A competent skipper will manage the boat so power use is minimised anyway...and if what you need all that power for is so vital what will you do when it inevitably goes wrong in the multiple ways that a complex system can?

My own boat is 33'10" overall, and whilst undoubtedly lighter than Odyssey, relies on a 19hp Volvo, which, to be honest, is perfectly adequate.

Every system has problems, and marine Diesels as well. Just after Christmas a French couple came to Southampton and bought a boat. They had it surveyed and inspected and the engine checked by a mechanic, then left the Hamble and the engine stopped and they could not even put the kettle on because they were leaning too much. Call on 16 from the coastguard came in at 17h36 according to my log. There was no assistance to be given as they drifted pretty far in the mud and they stuck it out. We went to Cowes and I actually met the couple and helped them moor up at 2.45 am as I was coming from the bathroom. Moral of the story is all engines fail. Bavaria 50 with 4 killed in Italy as the engine gave out as they were going into harbour on a storm and ended up immediately on the breakwater. I cannot even tell you the number of engine failures on the Channel 16 here in the Solent. It’s a lot of them. I was recently told as I had the Diesel Hybrid conversation with a coastie, that 80% of calls are tow away calls.
It's all down to economics and we like the idea of having two forms of propulsion we can rely on if the other fails. And we also have sails.

Were not intending to go racing on motor. It’s all down to feasibility / price / availably the solution we are putting together works for us. Of course, I would like a smaller engine, have not found one yet I would like to buy. But one thing is for sure. No Turbos and simple is the way to go. Parts for VW in Germany are to be found by the ton at pretty cheap as opposed to buying coal at the price of gold which is what MARINE parts are.

 

[GregOddity]

Hybrid Diesel Electric. Welcome to the Future!

Well since there’s so much misinformation going around, I thought it was time to bring you to the Future and talk about that “inefficiency “you guys keep going on about.
Because I’m not very good at communication here’s some Science and Specialists talking.

Siemens
https://www.siemens.com/press/en/feature/2015/corporate/2015-03-electromotor.php?content[]=Corp

University of Illinois College of Engineering. sciencedaily
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/11/181127171416.htm

NASA
https://www.nasa.gov/centers/armstrong/programs_projects/electric_propulsion/index.html

BOING, Reuters
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-aerospace-hybrid/boeing-backed-hybrid-electric-commuter-plane-to-hit-market-in-2022-idUSKBN1CA16A


Finantial Times
https://www.ft.com/content/0a58d62e-aeb9-11e8-8d14-6f049d06439c

maybe this HELPS clarify the "ineficiencies" and the ADVANTAGES of an HYBRID system over a mechanical system where we only manage to harness a very small ammount of the energy stored in the form of liquid fuel.

Off course nothing of this works for boats…and yet the whole world is literally spending BILLIONS racing to it.

 

[PaulRainbow]

How much weight does 750 L of fuel weight?

638.1 kg

But what's that to do with anything ? Who carries 750l of diesel in a 33 ft sail boat ?

My sailboat carries 100l of diesel, i don't use a tankful in a season, i use the sails.

Which 2007 car engine are you planning to use ?

How much power do you figure the motor will need to produce to push the boat at 4 knots ?

How many a/h of battery capacity do you plan to install ?

How much will those batteries weigh ?

How much diesel do you plan to carry to recharge the batteries ?

 

[PaulRainbow]

Re: Hybrid Diesel Electric. Welcome to the Future!

Off course nothing of this works for boats…and yet the whole world is literally spending BILLIONS racing to it.

Well spotted :encouragement:

Whilst we're rambling about inneficiency, how many horse power worth of electricity do you imagine a 75hp engine would produce, if it was coupled to a properlay built generator ?

 

[GregOddity]

Re: Hybrid Diesel Electric. Welcome to the Future!

Well spotted :encouragement:

Whilst we're rambling about inneficiency, how many horse power worth of electricity do you imagine a 75hp engine would produce, if it was coupled to a properlay built generator ?

Paul although a good question it may not be the right one for the situation. If we use a bicycle dynamo that engine will only power a small light bulb.
There are more important questions to be asked, like how much power do we need and what generator are we going to use. Those are the questions that need proper answers. Not how much I can produce with that engine because that is purely an academic question.
We’re not after how much can we produce but searching for the how much is it going to cost. What are the cheaper ways we can use to achieve a solution that although not perfect academically, will allow us to power the boat. I have no problems with the engine being overpowered for what we need. I have more problems with Diesel engines at low RPM’s and how do I solve that.

 

[GregOddity]

638.1 kg

But what's that to do with anything ? Who carries 750l of diesel in a 33 ft sail boat ?

My sailboat carries 100l of diesel, i don't use a tankful in a season, i use the sails.

Which 2007 car engine are you planning to use ?

How much power do you figure the motor will need to produce to push the boat at 4 knots ?

How many a/h of battery capacity do you plan to install ?

How much will those batteries weigh ?

How much diesel do you plan to carry to recharge the batteries ?

I will post all of those in HIGH detail when we get to building the system which will be around March.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Re: Hybrid Diesel Electric. Welcome to the Future!

Paul although a good question it may not be the right one for the situation. If we use a bicycle dynamo that engine will only power a small light bulb.
There are more important questions to be asked, like how much power do we need and what generator are we going to use. Those are the questions that need proper answers. Not how much I can produce with that engine because that is purely an academic question.
We’re not after how much can we produce but searching for the how much is it going to cost. What are the cheaper ways we can use to achieve a solution that although not perfect academically, will allow us to power the boat. I have no problems with the engine being overpowered for what we need. I have more problems with Diesel engines at low RPM’s and how do I solve that.

The engine would be overpowered if you connected a shaft and prop to it, but using it to power a generator, to run an electric motor, it's probably about the right amount of horse power. But, you'll be burning fuel to run a 75hp engine, to deliver 35hp to the prop. Not sure how that's efficient, or cheap.

We've been through this before, i'm all in favour of "cheap", but this aint it. If you want cheap, by all means marinise a suitable car engine, but connect it to a simple gearbox, shaft and prop.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I will post all of those in HIGH detail when we get to building the system which will be around March.

Why not answer them now, before you get stuck in and find it's all bollox ?

Answering them might help you to realise just how much bollox.

 

[GregOddity]

Rationale for Oddity Diesel Electric Hybrid

From an academic point of view the storage of electric energy due the battery specific energy density is a bottleneck. There are of course a few more hindrances like electric motor power density. So, advances still need to be made on this until we can think of a purely electric drive train for a long distance application like an airplane or car or sailboat.
Having said that as we deconstruct the problems associated with it some facts begin to shine more then others.
How much power do you need? For what distances? At what speeds? How to recharge the battery power bank.
My answers to those questions with Oddity are pretty simple.
First, we need high thrust at close quarters leaving harbour or coming in. Second, we need to be able to use power on demand bypassing the small problem of the energy density of our battery bank.
For the first I would say that on average we would need 20m of power going out or coming in, the rest being sail as it IS a sailboat. Therefore, the electric power exists merely to clear harbour traffic and busy areas. Same for coming into harbour which we nevertheless always do with raised sails just in case.
In this case a small amount of high-power thrust may be needed for initial or final manoeuvre into berth and then an acceptable cruising speed of 4 to 6 knots to clear Harbour and traffic.
5 minutes of high consumption and 15 of medium consumption then sails.
Same coming in.
Which gives the total of 40 minutes of power from the battery bank.
Under Ideal conditions, upon berth the battery bank gets recharged from mains for the next trip. No diesel Spent. No engine usage.
Under less then Ideal circumstances the need for power on demand can be crucial and sometimes the difference from having a picnic and a sleep over on some not so exotic mudflat. Therefore, the need for a generator to feed the electric propulsion drive train.
Bearing in mind that it IS a SAILBOAT, most of the time sailing IS what it does. But adding a generator begs the question if it can also be used as a direct propulsion drive train in case of electrical failure therefore also building redundancy.
We then arrive at the fact that prices of most technology related to electric systems involving battery storage have been coming down massively and although still very expensive the option of a Hybrid system is nevertheless almost at par with a Marine Engine price.
Our aim for Oddity is a Hybrid propulsion train that has 40m power and power on demand. This can be achieved in a number of ways and it finally comes down to simple economics and not the tech itself.
Would we like 2 hours battery power? Sure! Can we afford it? Nope... But we can afford 40 m and a cheap second-hand car engine as generator.
This is OUR project. It is what we’re going to fabricate and sail. We’re having loads of FUN working in it, discovering and experimenting with it all and ultimately this IS 2019 and technology exists for it and eBay is full of goodies to play with.
Would we pay for a MARINE diesel engine? Under no circumstance! Overpriced and Obsolete engines! But that is OUR opinion and we're not forcing anyone into becoming an adept at it.
So we hope you guys have fun watching us make it.

 

[GregOddity]

Why not answer them now, before you get stuck in and find it's all bollox ?
Answering them might help you to realise just how much bollox.

Patience is a virtue Paul. All in good time. I rather show you then start a discussion I’m never going to win. You believe in Diesel engines and paying for them and I don't. Its comparable to me trying to convert you to Buddhism. You believe what you like and I believe what I like. You’re very welcome to shell out 5 or 6k for a new MARINE Diesel when you wish.
The whole world is going Electric because of many reasons one of them being efficiency of electric motors comparable to mechanical ones. I’m just going with the flow.
I’m just a lunatic capable of repairing your radar or even rebuild it but not intelligent enough to understand the complicated and impenetrable world of DC current and its generation and storage.
The point is this. Hybrids are here to stay and I am NOT the only one doing them. On sailboats there are way more then you think. And it’s getting cheaper by the day.

 

[Spyro]

I will post all of those in HIGH detail when we get to building the system which will be around March.

My money is on that not happening. Will you be putting in a practice one on Selkie first.

 

[Skylark]

We’ve had an utterly bizarre definition of efficiency involving the second hand price of an engine. Marine engines are described as overpriced and obsolete. We’ve learned that the world is spending billions and racing to achieve hybrid drives for yachts, yet Greg is going to build one successfully with no prior knowledge, from mismatched components obtained for little money from eBay. Requested advice and counsel has been given freely by knowledgeable and expresienced professionals but it has been dismissed.

This is a parallel universe thread to the Steel boat postings by Bret Swain. Is this your Alter Ego, Greg ?