Boot Düsseldorf 2019

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Get a Targa more like.

Targas roll like any other boat and there's a big brown stain on the carpet of our old T48 to prove it

 

[TonyR123]

taking food to the flybridge is a bit of a pain, but I usually have enough people on board so I dont have to do it . The seating on the flybridge is bigger than the main deck and with better views.

seakeeper (or some form of stabilisation) is a no brainer for me on the flybridge. boat never sways at anchor now. never get asked to move the boat now, which I did before.

 

[henryf]

Sanlorenzo SX88.

I didn’t actually look round this but saw it from various vantage points around the show. Very striking visually with not one, not two but three IPS drive units. Might it be said that something has gone wrong when you have to whack 3 engines in a boat?

 

[henryf]

Navetta 48 & 52.

I saw this range at Cannes 18 months ago and very much like what they promise to offer. Trawler style accommodation and sea keeping but without the displacement only speed penalty. I’m going to concentrate on the 52. Compared to our Princess 50 flybridge there was no getting away from the fact these are built to a lower price point. First impressions were of a fantastic transom door leading into the crew cabin area / swimming bathroom. You can also access the engine room via the crew area. IPS 600 435hp engines - I’m a shaft man really so IPS wouldn’t be my first choice, presumably Absolute like the extra space it gives you to play with and potentially an easier install at the factory. Is there possibly a contradiction between the trawler concept and IPS or is that just me being an old stick in the mud? There were labels on all the pipes and wires - hopefully correct, and batteries were housed in a substantial metal tray. There wasn’t a top to collect any gas and vent it out though.












There’s provision for a BBQ on the back of the transom if you want to cover your lovely swim platform teak decking in grease.
Cockpit seating was ok, aft galley with a similar 3/4 fridge / small freezer to the Manhattan 52 only in this case you had to unclip and open the cabinet doors before you had access to open the actual fridge. That’s really messy and the cabinet door clips wouldn’t look out of place in a caravan. I’m being harsh but I’m not an octopus and in 2019 cabinet doors should be attached to appliance doors and open as one unit.

 

[henryf]

Seating and table to port, additional seating to starboard then leading on to a single helm seat serving the lower helm position. The side door leading to the starboard transom was a much cheaper fair than might be found on Princess or Sunseeker. More like a sliding patio door at home. This led out to the now essential for 2019 step through front deck seating. Walking along the gunwale there is a glass fibre overhang providing cover, the finish of which felt a bit cheap. There was a rubber bit of trim covering what would have been a rough edge, would it be a deal breaker? I guess it comes down to price, certainly it’s not what we are used to currently.








Lower accommodation on the Navetta 52 is quite interesting. Master cabin is full beam with the now ubiquitous settee one side, storage units the other, head room was OK but there was a protrusion above the rear 1/2 of the bed. Forward VIP is interesting as the bed is set at 45º rather than fore / aft. It allows access all round and adds to the sense of space. VIP en suite bathroom which shares access to day / 3rd cabin via Jack & Jill doors. Third cabin is a twin.










My thoughts were that you’d put a Navetta in the same family as a Beneteau Swift Trawler rather than a Flemming or a Grand Banks. It’s a Cat B not a Cat A boat but to be fair it won’t have the price tag of a more typical trawler style boat. I think this all comes down to price, are you saving enough money to live with the lower overall quality. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not rubbish, just not what we’re used to and I do like the accommodation this provides. Whether the sea keeping lives up to the image would be something to investigate.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Sanlorenzo SX88.

I didn’t actually look round this but saw it from various vantage points around the show. Very striking visually with not one, not two but three IPS drive units. Might it be said that something has gone wrong when you have to whack 3 engines in a boat?

What has gone wrong is that Volvo dont yet make powerful enough IPS drives for a boat this size and hence builders have to use 3 not 2. I must admit I do not understand SL's decision to use IPS on a boat of this size and type unless its real purpose is to be a beach club that moves from one anchorage to the next rather than a proper cruising boat. But who am I to criticise They know their customers far better than I do

 

[Bouba]

Being of a younger generation in my late 20's I have never lived through the internal steps era but I do have a question. Why do boats not feature a dumb waiter system? I don't want stairs getting in the way but I'd love an easy way of transporting food, drink and stuff between upper and lower areas. It's also a lot safer than trying carry things.

Henry

The Swift Trawler 50 has a dumb waiter and there is another that I’ve seen with one but I’ve forgotten which boat

 

[henryf]

Bavaria R55.

Bizarrely for a company who went into self administration last year before being rescued this proved to be the hardest boat at Dusseldorf to look round. What makes it all the more amazing is that I let them know we currently own a 50 foot flybridge bought new from Princess. It is hard to imagine a more perfect prospect but the sales prevention girl at reception did her utmost to send us away.

The display boat didn’t have a crew cabin instead featuring a massive lazarette space accessed from the bathing platform. There was once again an option to ruin the teak on your swim platform with grease from a BBQ should you so desire. Steps up the starboard side into a teak laid cockpit area.







Another aft galley boat and it failed my full height fridge freezer test. Instead it featured an under counter draw style fridge over freezer arrangement with the stainless drawer fronts on display which I didn’t mind, they looked functional and meant easy access. You can probably opt for twin units should you so desire.





From the open plan galley you step up into the saloon area with seating round a table to port, open seating to starboard. There were some blinds which dropped down fro the ceiling should you want a bit more privacy in the saloon area. I’m not sure how they would fare if the boat was moving around.




A twin seat helm station to Starboard with side access to the gunwale. As with the Absolute Navetta this seemed a fairly flimsy affair compared to the electric latching doors Princess or Sunseeker would use.



Bow seating was a sort of hybrid step through. Essentially lounging on the bow deck with a little seating area at the front.

 

[henryf]

3 cabin layout with a full beam master. Probably the messiest of the mid 50 footers at the show in terms of floor and ceiling height changes. You could get round everywhere but there compromises. There was also a rather odd free standing stool in the master cabin, not sure why you’ve fill up an already tight space and replicate seating already in place. Forward VIP and twin 3rd cabin.









Looking in the bathrooms the side panels could easily be pressed in and felt a bit flimsy. There was also a rubber trim which looked a bit agricultural.





The flybridge felt a bit tight given the overall length of boat and it was another instance where the helm position was set well back from the windscreen / spray dodge. As per Sunseeker there was a huge sunbathing area in front of the helm position which I do not like at all. I want uninterrupted views of where I’m going.







I didn’t get a real world price for the boat and that’s obviously going to have a huge bearing. If its the same price as a Princess or a Sunseeker then clearly that’s the route you would go but if you’re making a significant saving there’s an appeal. The layout is ok, it’s not a bad looking boat but it’s also an IPS boat which may or may not influence your decision to purchase. One thing I would say is that the display boat was actually a year old and had been used for charter in the Med. That being the case it looks to have stood up to its first season extremely well.

 

[MapisM]

I must admit I do not understand SL's decision to use IPS on a boat of this size and type unless its real purpose is to be a beach club that moves from one anchorage to the next rather than a proper cruising boat.

Agreed - as already debated in this previous thread.
Otoh, even if IPS are right at the top of my personal OMDB list rolleyes, I believe that there's some technical logic in triple installations, aside from the need for enough power.
In fact, the fundamental flow of IPS is that they are designed for planing boats, whose hulls are V-shaped.
But rather than considering this very obvious constraint, VP thought that asking boatbuilders to make flatter hull sections in the area where IPS pods must be positioned was a good enough workaround for reducing the listing introduced by diagonal thrust upon steering - with results spanning anywhere from barely acceptable to downright dangerous.
Now, think about it: with triple installation, there is one third of the total thrust which is never diverted diagonally, and that contributes to limit the pod-generated listing.
Which is the last thing you want on such a big boat, and that could possibly be difficult to eliminate even for the fin stabs.

 

[NGM]

What has gone wrong is that Volvo dont yet make powerful enough IPS drives for a boat this size and hence builders have to use 3 not 2. I must admit I do not understand SL's decision to use IPS on a boat of this size and type unless its real purpose is to be a beach club that moves from one anchorage to the next rather than a proper cruising boat. But who am I to criticise They know their customers far better than I do

I'm sure someone will be along in a sec to say the IPS was purely to give this 88 footer some more cabin space and the pro skipper some help with docking.
You have to think it was deemed the most economical and range extending for an semiD of this size.

 

[MapisM]

Is there possibly a contradiction between the trawler concept and IPS

Absolutely not, if by IPS you mean pods in general.
Pods (not IPS of course, I'm talking of commercial grade stuff, built by Thrustmaster and the likes) are perfect for real trawlers, for several good very reasons that have nothing to see with the IPS popularity in pleasure boats - wannabe trawlers included.

 

[MapisM]

I'm sure someone will be along in a sec to say the IPS was purely to give this 88 footer some more cabin space and the pro skipper some help with docking.
You have to think it was deemed the most economical and range extending for an semiD of this size.

Most economical possibly, but for the builder's P&L statement.
The SX88 is rated for speeds exceeding 20kts, which are above semiD also at this size.
Their proper SD vessels (aptly called SD range) are all shaft powered, bar none.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Agreed - as already debated in this previous thread.
Otoh, even if IPS are right at the top of my personal OMDB list rolleyes, I believe that there's some technical logic in triple installations, aside from the need for enough power.
In fact, the fundamental flow of IPS is that they are designed for planing boats, whose hulls are V-shaped.
But rather than considering this very obvious constraint, VP thought that asking boatbuilders to make flatter hull sections in the area where IPS pods must be positioned was a good enough workaround for reducing the listing introduced by diagonal thrust upon steering - with results spanning anywhere from barely acceptable to downright dangerous.

Not sure I understand your point about 'diagonal' thrust. Surely any lateral thrust from one drive is offset by the other drive?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

You have to think it was deemed the most economical and range extending for an semiD of this size.

As I said above, if you believe the test data in MBY, IPS delivers little or no fuel economy advantage over shafts for bigger, heavier flybridge boats

 

[MapisM]

Not sure I understand your point about 'diagonal' thrust. Surely any lateral thrust from one drive is offset by the other drive?

Nope, M. I can see why "diagonal" alone ain't self-explanatory enough, sorry for that.
But in a typical twin installations, when steering, both IPS rotate along a diagonal axis - as diagonal as the hull deadrise is.
As a result, the thrust vector can be split in three components:
1) fwd (which is what keeps the boat going)
2) lateral (which is what makes the boat steer)
3) vertical (which is what makes the boat list)
No other propulsion system introduces (3), which is totally undesired but inevitable with pods placed perpendicular to the sides of a V hull.
But of course (3) doesn't exist with the central pod of a triple installation.

PS: just in case the above isn't yet clear enough, there is no offset of the vertical component, in a twin installation.
It's actually the other way round: when steering say to port, the vertical thrust introduced by port pod pulls the hull down on port side, while stbd pod pulls the hull up on stbd side - hence both concur in making the boat list to port, much more than she would do for the steering alone.

 

[NGM]

Most economical possibly, but for the builder's P&L statement.
The SX88 is rated for speeds exceeding 20kts, which are above semiD also at this size.
Their proper SD vessels (aptly called SD range) are all shaft powered, bar none.

it quotes 23 top speed, so v unlikely to get close to that, seems likely it has been designed to spend it's time in 10-18 knt range.
I'd be surprised that on a £8m boat with top end fit out and respected design that they chose the engines purely to boost bottom line but maybe you're right.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

PS: just in case the above isn't yet clear enough, there is no offset of the vertical component, in a twin installation.
It's actually the other way round: when steering say to port, the vertical thrust introduced by port pod pulls the boat downward on port side, while stbd pod pulls the hull upward on stbd side - hence both concur in making the boat list to port, much more than she would do for the steering alone.

OK understood now. I have read that IPS boats tend to have wider turning circles than shaftdrive boats at speed. Maybe the steering movement of the IPS drives is restricted at speed to reduce this additional vertical component and keep listing to an acceptable angle?

 

[MapisM]

Absolutely, that's a crucial part of the initial IPS setup in any new boat.
And my understanding is that this was the key factor behind the decision of NOT adopting IPS in some f/b boats whose hulls were too sensible to this effect, to the point of being potentially dangerous when steering hard over at speed.

 

[MapisM]

I'd be surprised that on a £8m boat with top end fit out and respected design that they chose the engines purely to boost bottom line but maybe you're right.

Well, you might remember that I'm a supporter of SL as a builder, generally speaking.
But in an interview, Perotti declared (in a nutshell) that the SX line is targeted at the sons of their traditional clients.
Just read between the lines....