Boat value and old boat recycling

[onesea]

I disagree. Buy the boat for £5k. Then you spend:-

£5k on new sails
£2k on new rigging
£5k on a new engine
£2k on new cushions
£2k on new instrument.

So in total you've spent £21k in total.

For not much more, you can have a 90s/2000s 30 footer with a double aft cabin and hot water.

I could quibble over some of the numbers, however give or take.

It depends what you want from a boat and berthing and lifting costs. We are in this process, 2 years in and still sailing. Gambling on the engine having a few years life in it yet.

Sails 6 to 15 year lifespan?
Rigging 10 year plus?
Engine 20 years?
Cushions 20 years?
Instruments 5 minutes? Seriously say 10 years?

So annual costs:
Sails £500,
Rigging £200,
Engine £500,
Cushions £100,
Instruments £200,
Headlining £50,

I could go on, all equipment on a boat has a life span, from day one there will be expenses.

If you choose right yes in first 5 years you will be at a loss, after that? Depends what you choose you probably won’t “make” money but your losses could be less than buying the “better” boat (rigging 5 years old engine 10, cushions 15 instruments etc etc) and keeping her up to date.

It also depends how much your prepared to do yourself and enjoy doing yourself. I enjoy working on and improving my boat.

Much on a boat is simple you just need to take the time and have the time to learn how to do it.

For me work on the boat has two aspects money and time. Some jobs you just have to pay money others you can control costs with your own time.

For me buy local, encapsulated keel, minimal wood work on deck, avoiding bilge keels and centerboards reduces the risk of big expense. I also like a project I can sail from almost day 1. Then we can enjoy her and make the improvements that I see fit from experience as we go.

The biggest downside is space, older boats generally do not have the volume or arguably speed of newer boats. Then it depends how you count space, our present boat was a 5 berth cruising boat

Certainly if you buy long keel they don’t like tight marinas.

It’s sad to see good old boats go down hill, sadly they are generally worth more in bits than as a whole. Unless someone is prepared to do the work.

 

[onesea]

I've wondered why some of the camper van conversion companies haven't moved into the boat refurb market. The Ikea look is in vogue (guilty of it myself) and an interior refit along the lines of a van fit out.

Because you get interiors something like this.
Not certain I want my boat needs a picket post fence, a tile effect deck fully lined with tongue and groove pine strip.

Remove the cushions turn cooker on, you will have all the ingredients for a authentic steam room.
I won't mention the headliner already starting to fall down and the incomplete paint round the cooker.
If nothing else don't paint the structural bulkheads, varnish means you can see if they have damp in. Paint means your left guessing, I just assume they have damp in them.

 

[Bobc]

All valid arguments, but the OP was about a commercial venture refurbishing old boats for re-sale.

To do that, they would have to spend all the money I suggested, and would end-up up with a boat they can't sell because nobody will pay £25k for a Centaur, no matter how good it is.

 

[Keith 66]

I was a boatbuilder & started out working in production grp yachts, later doing a lot of grp repairs to write offs. I also did a lot of wooden boat restoration. I have done three complete refits on two yachts for us, A wooden gaffer, an Anderson 22 & A Sabre 27, The last was very cheap at 2k but was a typical basket case. She has cost significantly more than her market value but we have a lovely boat.
The single most expensive item you will replace on a boat is the engine & 5k goes nowhere, A Yanmar 1gm10 is around £5240 but a 21hp is nearly £8000 Then you find the stern gear is worn out or has electrolysis, the coupling is warped, the fuel tank is rusted out, prop needs changing, single lever control & cables are seized, exhaust hose collapses. I could go on. The Engine & its installation can easily eat ten grand or more.
Rigging sails, wiring, instruments, upholstery. In reality its a mugs game doing up an old production yacht!
Not so many young people have the money or time to refit yachts, the cultural ethos of many is to collect experiences not things.
Our club is now half full of end of life boats, very few will ever go afloat again.

 

[Stemar]

Our club is now half full of end of life boats, very few will ever go afloat again.

We have a few as well, all afloat on moorings which I hope are properly maintained. You look at them, and you know someone's going to end up paying to have them demolished. One, a little Westerly, would make a good project for someone with the time and skills, a few others - Macwester, Snapdragon, etc, just aren't boats people want any more, which is a great shame because our Snappie was a great little boat.

There's a small number of old boats a business might make money on - Twisters, Contessas and the like, but too many are just old tubs that could never make the leap from MAB to sleek classic no matter how much money was lavished on them.

 

[PeterV]

All valid arguments, but the OP was about a commercial venture refurbishing old boats for re-sale.

To do that, they would have to spend all the money I suggested, and would end-up up with a boat they can't sell because nobody will pay £25k for a Centaur, no matter how good it is.

I wonder. If the SBS had a completely refitted Centaur for, say £30K as a family starter boat alongside a modern, 34’ for about £200K, would no one be interested?

 

[Rappey]

Many seem to assume that an old boat is full of equipment that needs replacing ? Certainly not correct.
I have "aquired" a lot of small boats (28ft or less) over the years that have been abandoned, moorings not paid for or just given away.
Sold 6 this year.
Many of them just need time to get everything working and hardly any money spent to achieve a boat that looks OK and is totally useable.
They are usually very green and filthy from the neglect but a quick power wash, paint or polish makes a world of difference.
The key is knowing which are worth spending time on and which are sold as projects.
I've had yanmars and lombardinis that have not been run for many years yet a clean of the fuel system and the usual service items has resulted in engines that fire straight up every time. Many come with working electronics and a wardrobe of sails that are totally useable.
Some are project boats or even complete sheds that need most things yet they still seem popular and sell .
Location may have a lot to do with it. A harbour with a huge amount of swinging moorings around £500 per year makes owning a smaller boat viable.
Many decent parts can be sourced cheaply from market place and ebay.
An old boat does not need to look brand new.
I have saved a lot of boats from being chopped up.

 

[jac]

I wonder. If the SBS had a completely refitted Centaur for, say £30K as a family starter boat alongside a modern, 34’ for about £200K, would no one be interested?

Not sure if you could commercially refurb a Centaur for £20-£25k. As a minimum one would surely need to replace rigging, sails, basic electronics, refurb the engine, tidy up the " owner improvements" and then maybe some hard work, professional polishing etc. Could an amateur do it for that, bringing in pros where required - yes. Not sure there is any money in it unless you can then sell the Centaur for nearer £50k

 

[Bobc]

I wonder. If the SBS had a completely refitted Centaur for, say £30K as a family starter boat alongside a modern, 34’ for about £200K, would no one be interested?

I suspect they would go and buy a 20 year old Bavaria or Beneteau for the same money. I would.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Of course if you take on a complete wreck of a (Centaur, Sadler 25, Jaguar 25 etc. etc.) you are in to major 'restoration' costs, but there are still planty of this type of boat that can be found for around £6 - 8k that have been looked after, well maintained and won't need major restoration, which means it is possible to get on the water in a reasonably comfortable boat for a fraction of the cost of buying new.
It's these boats that most will go for, only a few will consider ones that need thousands spent on them unless at a price that is almost paying you to take it away.

 

[jac]

Of course if you take on a complete wreck of a (Centaur, Sadler 25, Jaguar 25 etc. etc.) you are in to major 'restauration' costs, but there are still planty of this type of boat that can be found for around £6 - 8k that have been looked after, well maintained and won't need major restoration, which means it is possible to get on the water in a reasonably comfortable boat for a fraction of the cost of buying new.
It's these boats that most will go for, only a few will consoder ones that need thousands spent on them.

Again though i wonder if there is a reducing number of people who would do that. I can quite imagine someone in their late 50's or 60's who grew up wanting a Centaur but having to sail on his dads old silhouette being happy to refurb a centaur.

But someone in their twenties or thirties? Who maybe took to yacht sailing via a couple of flotillas in the med, did a Day Skipper on a modern 36 footer? Would they want that?
Add in the fact that boats are more complicated, people have less DIY skills ( try servicing a modern car) expected standards are high, financial pressures are greater so spending time refurbing may be limited. For not much more money they could get a late 80's - 90's 30 -33 footer which will probably take the same effort to restore

That would suggest that we will see a reducing number of old " classic" boats as the young get by on chartering etc and those willing to take on very small ( sub 30) boats diminish.

 

[Rappey]

A friends son took part in the recent fastnet race on a new jeanneau or beneteau 36, can't remember which..
By the time they arrived in cherbourg he said the boat was nearly a right off as interior cabinetry was parting from the hull and chain plates were pulling out !
Make a much older solid grp hull/deck more appealing ?

 

[Bobc]

A friends son took part in the recent fastnet race on a new jeanneau or beneteau 36, can't remember which..
By the time they arrived in cherbourg he said the boat was nearly a right off as interior cabinetry was parting from the hull and chain plates were pulling out !
Make a much older solid grp hull/deck more appealing ?

A lot of boats suffered damage in the last Fastnet. Almost half the fleet retired.

 

[obmij]

Realistically, there isn't a market for commercially refurbished elderly vessels. Even if the market would support profit costs, there would be difficulties with warranting the work carried out.

Anyway, the current system works quite well!

People do buy older boats, carry out works as necessary and then sell on when said vessel is no longer wanted. The proud new owner then carries on the process with the odd upgrade, rarely a full refit, and then sells on in a few years and so it continues!

There always seems to be plenty of whistling through the teeth, shaking of heads and dark mutterings 'it's not worth it / you'll never get it back' etc from owners of newer boats when it comes to discussing refurbs of older boats but the anticipated costs very rarely materialise. It is vanishingly rare for the new owner of an older boat to embark on a comprehensive program of refurbishment and it is equally rare that anything so drastic is necessary. The replacement of engines seems to be a great fear and boats with original engines should supposedly be avoided like the plague. But what is an old engine? 10 years? 30 years? What about 27 years? Boat engines are simple, parts are generally obtainable and the decision to replace an engine is rarely one of necessity, but like anything else it is nice to have something shiny and new.

 

[jamie N]

I've an old wooden boat which needs pretty much constant attention in the struggle against time and deterioration.
When I bought the boat, I knew that I was buying into that. If I'd only wanted to sail, then I'd have bought a fully GRP, Mariehome Folkboat for example, but that wouldn't have suited me.
To cost effectively do up an old GRP boat will require having or gaining skills, and daring oneself, to perhaps remove an engine and restore it, then refit it, or buy into learning enough of 12VDC electrics to realise how astoundingly simple it is, and then rewire the boat. Replacing the hardware that one feels most comfortable having is a different thing that's potentially pricey, but being able to decide what's necessary against what's nice to have is personal.
It needn't be too prohibitively expensive, as well as not needing to be done "NOW", but done in the order of importance.
Most times, it'll be OK if one can keep the mast up, and the water out.

 

[Greenheart]

I suppose it's inevitable that anyone able to afford (let us say) a six-figure sum for a yacht that needs a five-figure sum to update after a few years, feels a degree of withering pity towards buyers of old stuff costing four figures to buy and at least that much again, to make really tidy...

...meanwhile the owner who squeezed his finances to own something few would envy, will usually defend his alarming outgoings on maintenance, upgrades and berthing, as worth it for the sense of reward. We mostly only do what we can afford, and as no part of yacht owning at any level makes financial sense, it's hardly worth discussing the costs with anyone in a different value bracket.

...we have the RYA this month highlighting the ‘big issue’ of how to dispose of all the old unwanted boats.

I hoped this thread would be about how to recycle abandoned GRP hulks, not just the ones still clobbering their owners' wallets.
.

 

[Stemar]

The replacement of engines seems to be a great fear and boats with original engines should supposedly be avoided like the plague. But what is an old engine? 10 years? 30 years? What about 27 years? Boat engines are simple, parts are generally obtainable and the decision to replace an engine is rarely one of necessity, but like anything else it is nice to have something shiny and new.

For me, an old engine in this context is one that doesn't run reliably and is uneconomic to repair. Age comes into it, but is only part of the equation. When I bought my Snapdragon, nearly 20 years ago, she had an old engine which gave up the ghost after a couple of years. I replaced it with a second hand engine from 1989. That ran faultlessly for the next 18 years and was still starting well and not using any oil when I sold the boat 18 years later. With proper maintenance there's no reason it shouldn't go on for another 10 years or more.

The engines in my current boat are 25 years old. They needed some significant work this year, but the mechanic reckons there's no reason they shouldn't go on for another 10 years or more.

 

[Rappey]

I hoped this thread would be about how to recycle abandoned GRP hulks,

There do not appear to be many options. Boat breakers in Portsmouth claim to recycle boats for a rather large fee but all i see in their videos are boats being crunched up in a skip with an excavator and nothing being removed to sell on ?
I've enquired about a few used items from them over the years but it's actually cheaper to buy new than pay what they want for used.
A local guy wanted to get rid of a 21ft sailing boat. He hired a skip, chopped the boat up with a disc cutter and away it went !

 

[Tranona]

Another example of a usable boat for modest money
boatshed.com/jaguar_25-boat-316455.html

 

[Greenheart]

I thought someone somewhere proposed a tax on all new builds, to help avert their own eventual blighting of the environment and meanwhile to start funding removal of the old glassfibre already lying about.

It surprises me that there aren't hundreds of scarcely-desirable GRP boats, barely worth the cost of their annual berth, routinely being scuttled or abandoned. Recognition (by newbies, and the general public, and even some longterm owners) of what a money-pit a "cheap" boat can be, is somehow leagues behind the fantasy of how great it is to own a yacht.

Long live the illusion.