Boat sinks in Jersey

[Praxinoscope]

The pre requisites necessary to being examined for a Yachtmaster Offshore Certificate of Competence are quite explicit on the RYA website. As are the extra requirements to be Commercially Endorsed.

https://www.rya.org.uk/courses-training/exams/Pages/yachtmaster-offshore.aspx

Clearly the Sipper of the boat had demonstrated sufficient capability during his exam to pass and be awarded his certificate of competence. Otherwise he would not have one.

Passing the buck here to the RYA process of training and certification is, in my opinion, bonkers. Who blames the DVLA for car crashes.........

Not sure anyone is laying the blame on the RYA doorstep, but questioning the fact that a skipper with no record of skippering on full night passages should have been awarded a Commercial Certiificate of Competence.
It’s all very well having the theory, but shouldn’t practical experience be part of it?
There were sufficient failings/ errors in the skippers actions to question ‘Commercial Competence’.

 

[Whitelighter]

Re: Pershing 62 sinks

Yep, some pretty basic errors in there.

Good example of Swiss cheese theory...

 

[GHA]

Not sure anyone is laying the blame on the RYA doorstep, but questioning the fact that a skipper with no record of skippering on full night passages should have been awarded a Commercial Certiificate of Competence.
It’s all very well having the theory, but shouldn’t practical experience be part of it? .

From the report >

He also stated that he had made a numberof night time passages but on other vessels.

 

[Praxinoscope]

From the report >

But in what capacity? Several of my occasional crew members have made night passages, but not helmed or navigated, certainly not to an extent that I would classify them as competent to skipper avessel at night.

 

[CLB]

Weirdly, the day skipper course, being a course, does include some night time nav. As there is no YM practical course, there are no actual requirements. When I did my YM, there were two of us doing the exam and it was in the depths of winter, so the day was very short. This meant that quite a bit of my YM exam was carried out in the dark, but had I been in my own that day I suspect it would have all been done in daylight hours.

 

[Mr Googler]

Re: Pershing 62 sinks

Didn’t want to upset the owner by turning too hard.....bet the owner is well chuffed now.

 

[capnsensible]

The link I provided details the pre exam requirements.

The exam always includes night navigation excercises.

No further experience sea time is required for a certificate of competence to be commercially endorsed.

Two posters have been critical of the RYA scheme.

The skipper of the boat that the thread is about made a significant error. It happens.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: Pershing 62 sinks

Doesn't reflect well on skipper ....

This stuck out in the report for me

The skipper advised that this was his first full darkness sea passage.

Does this mean this was his first full darkness passage in this particular boat or his first full darkness passage ever? If the latter, it doesnt take much to get a commercial licence these days does it?

Doing 21kts with the bow stuck up in the air at night in these waters was asking for it IMHO but I have to say there for the grace of God go I because many years ago I came within a hair of hitting a buoy in the Solent on a night passage

 

[guernseyman]

The really significant facts are that the skipper was lost, yet accelerated to over 21 knots into the collision with Ruardiere.

Was there any mention of a passage plan?

 

[dom]

The link I provided details the pre exam requirements.

The exam always includes night navigation excercises.

No further experience sea time is required for a certificate of competence to be commercially endorsed.

Two posters have been critical of the RYA scheme.

The skipper of the boat that the thread is about made a significant error. It happens.

Nobody is blaming the RYA, but the boat's owner and the professional skipper can reasonably question the RYA's training requirements.

This happens all of the time in other industries: medicine, banking, oil, construction, mining, etc. For example following an aircraft accident the US FAA routinely examines the aircraft's systems, training, and pilot testing.

Perhaps the RYA should revisit questions such as the use of a simple simulator test upon re-accreditation. Perhaps such a test should be a component of the original exam. Perhaps its training and testing requirements are a bit old fashioned, perhaps a lot of things.

Good to keep an open mind :encouragement:

 

[Whitelighter]

Re: Pershing 62 sinks

It mentions he had done night passages in other boats later in the paragraph

I read it was the first night passage in this boat or from this port

 

[capnsensible]

Nobody is blaming the RYA, but the boat's owner and the professional skipper can reasonably question the RYA's training requirements.

This happens all of the time in other industries: medicine, banking, oil, construction, mining, etc. For example following an aircraft accident the US FAA routinely examines the aircraft's systems, training, and pilot testing.

Perhaps the RYA should revisit questions such as the use of a simple simulator test upon re-accreditation. Perhaps such a test should be a component of the original exam. Perhaps its training and testing requirements are a bit old fashioned, perhaps a lot of things.

Good to keep an open mind :encouragement:

Looking to see what the requirements are for revalidating a commercial endorsement may avoid embarrassment.

There are no simulators.

There is no further practical testing at sea.

It's simply to check that the short courses such as first aid, with an expiry date is in date.

It's good to keep an open mind about the real requirements.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

These days, I assess drilling rigs, post Macondo, to try and keep my employer out of the shit. The assessment team I lead checks everything from equipment, procedures, maintenance, training, competency, risk assessment, risk awareness etc. All of my employers incidents are down to people, and the vast majority are due to low competency, even through they meet the training requirements and in some cases, the exceed the minimum statutory requirements. The RYA are not to blame and have no blame in this matter, and any improvements they could make in the scheme would almost be irrelevant - think of the many RYA people out there doing their thing safely, without incident. The individual had everything he needed to pilot the boat out the port, as far as I can tell from the report, but for whatever reason did what he did. Maybe the employer / owner should have dug deeper into the skippers history to ensure that they were protecting their life and assets by hiring a quality skipper. I would be more inclined to blame the employer, than the RYA.

 

[MedMilo]

Re: Pershing 62 sinks

Doing 21kts with the bow stuck up in the air at night in these waters was asking for it IMHO

I agree, having done plenty of long night passages myself I can't imagine cruising at more than displacement speed. Distances are hard to gauge and lobster pots hard to see - and, if it's my unlucky night, I'd rather hit a partially submerged container at 8 knots than 20 knots!

 

[Bouba]

Re: Pershing 62 sinks

I agree, having done plenty of long night passages myself I can't imagine cruising at more than displacement speed. Distances are hard to gauge and lobster pots hard to see - and, if it's my unlucky night, I'd rather hit a partially submerged container at 8 knots than 20 knots!

It says he wasn’t familiar with the handling of surface drives

 

[Portofino]

Re: Pershing 62 sinks

I read it he had the local knowledge .
But was distracted fiddling with the screens .Used the backlight issue as the bait to the investigation which they took .
Probably lack experience of fast boats ( that’s relitive to his personal experience) you know bow high and drive trimming wrestling with Anrnies was in the dark .
Personally I don,t think the engines were any where near over 60 degrees before he opened it up the bit about the AIS time lapse suggested they were high twenties knots ,that’s still not enough for ave running speed of a Pershing should be 36/38 knots at about 1800 rpm ish .I reckon he still had the drives up / out and was airating them through the 1200 to 1500 rpm no mans land while the boat was getting going .
Had he dropped the Arnies down sooner the bow would have come down as he accelerated to cruise .

None of the actual poor technique driving the Pershing excuses the lapse in local knowledge and daft manoeuvre doing a stb stb with the incoming vessel .

It’s a shocker really .

Should have pootled out into clear water ,warming up the engines maybe pushing a small bowwave @ 12 knots .
Once clear of the bouys then had a play with the Arnesons ,trim and throttles with the owner acting as a second pair of eyes .

 

[dom]

Looking to see what the requirements are for revalidating a commercial endorsement may avoid embarrassment.

There are no simulators.

There is no further practical testing at sea.

It's simply to check that the short courses such as first aid, with an expiry date is in date.

It's good to keep an open mind about the real requirements.

Granting a commercially endorsed professional skipper's licence with no night time experience in charge, either real or simulated, is certainly open to question; not necessarily wrong, but open to question. On the face of it this sounds lackadaisical to say the least.

In which light it is certainly worth considering whether the rudimentary 'real requirements' you have described and referenced are deficient in some respects.

 

[capnsensible]

Granting a commercially endorsed professional skipper's licence with no night time experience in charge, either real or simulated, is certainly open to question;

It isn't because, er, there is. And there is no 'simulator' .

How often are there accidents reported that have involved a commercially endorsed skipper? Rare indeed.

 

[johnalison]

Experience isn't always the same as having competence. I once took a YM shore instructor as crew on a 50hr passage. Although he was a boat owner and sailor for some 30 yrs, I was several times called from my bunk to interpret ships' lights that had come into view.

 

[petem]

Re: Pershing 62 sinks

Eeek, I don't think I'd fancy boating around there, far too many things to hit!

Thank god they had the wherewithal to call a mayday and take to the liferaft.