Boat sinks in Jersey

Re: Pershing 62 sinks

The Garmin kit has "autoroute" and does not have a reset XTE function as do Raymarine ( or did not in the 2014 version).

No idea what kit it had etc, but on Garmin the only way of correcting the route ( on the 2014 version) is to ask it to recalculate - which takes seconds - and then indeed it will navigate around bouys. The only criticism i had of it was that even on the FAR setting it navigated far to close to headlands for my personal level of comfort. In Mallorca most of the water is pretty deep so as far as it was concerned it was in 30m of water, which it was, but was also only a short distance from the rocks which i did not like. Other than that it was superb.

I do agree with JFM re auto helm. I used to fly and when the weather got bad and you are on instruments you are far better to be a systems manager as opposed to trying to do so many things that you become overwhelmed - and overwhelmed you can become as my instructor chose to demonstrate one day by keeping me doing things in foul foul weather until i said i don't think i can cope anymore. He said great - thats all i wanted to hear - take heading xxx and land. It was quite humbling to be frank.

I am sure many of us ( I have) have become slightly disorientated before in daylight heading into a strange port where your mental view of what is where and what you see disagree. When you can see it just takes a few moments to slow down, look at the chart and put it all back together again, but accelerating at night in a boat ( that from the reports he seemed unfamiliar with), avoiding other boats etc I can see how this happened.

Flying generally has a "learn from it" attitude as opposed to a blame one which is what leads to so many voluntary reports. Boating seems to be more blame orientated.

I have little night experience - i guess on my own 2-3 times. As with anything preparation plays its part and that is the take away here. Prep the boat ( nav lights, the lights down stairs etc) have all the kit set up ( radar, route etc) and use the available automation to your benefit.

As Jez said Swiss Cheese. Skipper a bit behind the boat, twilight so not fully dark, avoiding other boats, not so familiar with the boat, concerned about the comfort of the owner and suddenly something happens.
 
I hope that now the report is out, the owner or his insurance company sues him.
Hmm... And why, exactly? It would be worrying if insurances shouldn't cover mistakes - no matter how big.
Can you imagine insurance companies pretending that Schettino refunds from his own pockets the costs of what followed his mistake!
Regardless, I can't get my head round the reason why one should HOPE for that outcome... :confused:
 
I was also wondering that.
The way I read 8.2, it's the owner that "only ever experienced a night time passage once before", not the skipper.

Ahh, I was more thinking 2.13?

Got to say though, it's not a showcase report by any means!
 
Dunno, but I can think of three in the past few years.
Including this one and one where a keel fell off mid-atlantic? I'm guessing this might fall short of your normal standards for controlled scientific investigation. What do you believe is the likely shortcoming 13 years after passing yachtmaster of someone who learned on an intensive course vs someone who had learned progressively over the preceding 5 years? Do you think the difference ever goes away?

Is it perhaps worth a separate thread to discuss?
 
Re: Pershing 62 sinks

The Garmin kit has "autoroute"
Yup J, but that's an aid to route tracing, and you are supposed to check the results before confirming that you are fine with them and eventually go for it.
Recalculating the route in real time after an alteration, in order to avoid obstacles which weren't along the original route but now potentially pop up due to the alteration (which is what petem envisaged) is a very different kettle of fish.
Not that I see reasons why it couldn't be done technically, mind.
I just don't think I would approve it, if I were in charge of Garmin legal dept... :rolleyes:
 
Re: Pershing 62 sinks

Yup J, but that's an aid to route tracing, and you are supposed to check the results before confirming that you are fine with them and eventually go for it.
Recalculating the route in real time after an alteration, in order to avoid obstacles which weren't along the original route but now potentially pop up due to the alteration (which is what petem envisaged) is a very different kettle of fish.
Not that I see reasons why it couldn't be done technically, mind.
I just don't think I would approve it, if I were in charge of Garmin legal dept... :rolleyes:

But surely in your new role as head of Garmin legal dept you wouldn't have a problem if pressing "Track" sounded / displayed a warning that bringing the boat back on track will result it in hitting a buoy? Topic is probably worthy of a separate thread!
 
Re: Pershing 62 sinks

You are getting side tracked ( scuse the pun ) with the tech Garmin stuff .
That’s nought to do with it apart from the generality of ALL screens being a distraction DAY and NIGHT .
Also the insurance side debate is a none entity imho .” ALL RISK s “

It’s the huge local knowledge that lead to complacency.
“ I know my way around here “
Thus let’s face it does he really need to passage plan , set up a course , pour over charts before departing etc etc ? I don,t think so .
Would not have changed the outcome imho .

Put it this way I know every nook n cranny 40 miles W+E of La Napoule, St Trop to Monaco , every reef every marker ,ever port approach .

What caught him out was the type of boat a fast planning Arnesons and I reckon he did not how figure much time it would be In bow high attitude exaggerated by poor ( guessing 1st time ) control of the trim of the drives .
Not being able to match the boat rpm ,speed AND bow attitude.

He would have wondered why ( maybe a few secs say 10/15 ) before impact why the bow was still high .
Looking down at the rpm screens and Arnies trim guage and the speedo with his hand on the throttles and trim control.

So no hands on the wheel as he’s trying to figure for the 1st time how to do it .Not wanting to upset the owner with a tight turn is BS .
Eyes off the windscreen - buts the bows up anyhow Fwds and side ways disoriented due to the darkness .

Hands off the wheel .

No A/P or pre plan route entered beforehand for a guide .He doesn’t really need one being a local .

I never do any preplanning or look at the plotter , when local ( within 40 mikes ) Why should I ?
As said been sailing in MY waters for 15 years .

Just another point I like the “ 10 knot skipper in a 20 knot boat “ used above by Uricanejack in post #137

There a huge difference between for me doing 34 + knots and say 24 knots in a BUSY sea .
By busy let’s lump all the hazards in one group = if you hit = disaster.
Rocks , shoals , islands , other traffic , pots , water skiers ,kayaks,paddle boards debris etc etc .
Its the other traffic when I,am cruising over 30 knots I know it’s only a few more over say 22 but your thinking time seems to have shrunk , head down at the dash and with a closing speed of say target 21 knots atypical Med FB and me 32 knots that’s 53 knots or 60 mph , a mile a min .
You deffo need a second pair of eyes .As you are covering sea distance very quickly, faster than you think .
When you adjust your course for the 1 st target to avoid very quickly ( in a busy area ) there’s a 2nd now “ ON “ so to speak .

The incoming vessel, then the buoy in this case .

Slowing down makes a huge disproportionate difference to thinking and reacting time .

Sometimes I give in going fast in a “ busy “ area it’s just too stressful or the 2nd pair wants to be relieved of duties .

Think motorway all about 80 mph , maybe some 83 , some 73 , easy to anticipate ( ok same Dir - buts the thinking time if somebody shifts lane )
Then a slip road on , with an old fart doing 40 into 80 traffic , the % different 100% makes it feel dangerous .
So 10 to 20 or 20 to 30+ knots for those that don,t or can’t go ( cruise ) that fast that’s the constant feeling if you are out of step speed wise with the average around you .

This guy was not used to moving on water at that speed on top of the I reckon extended bow up attitude cos he couldn’t figure out the Arnies .
He knew exactly where the buoy was along with all the other hazards just mentally could not compute the distance the boat was covering in the time running .
It’s true he did not see it because he was not looking for it thought he was in another bit of the coast .
 
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Re: Pershing 62 sinks

But surely in your new role as head of Garmin legal dept you wouldn't have a problem if pressing "Track" sounded / displayed a warning that bringing the boat back on track will result it in hitting a buoy?
Topic is probably worthy of a separate thread!
Fair point. But I agree, that's actually o/t here...
 
Re: Pershing 62 sinks

Just another point I like the “ 10 knot skipper in a 20 knot boat “ used above by Uricanejack in post #137
That's actually one point I disagree with, sort of.
In poor visibility, there's neither a 20kts skipper nor a 20kt boat, imho.
We are all down to 10kts skippers, and we should use any boat accordingly.
There's only way I would be happy to cruise in poor viz at 20+ kts, and that's with a cruise ship.
 
Re: Pershing 62 sinks

That's actually one point I disagree with, sort of.
In poor visibility, there's neither a 20kts skipper nor a 20kt boat, imho.
We are all down to 10kts skippers, and we should use any boat accordingly.
There's only way I would be happy to cruise in poor viz at 20+ kts, and that's with a cruise ship.

The point I was making was not the absolute speed for the conditions,which I agree like many others was inappropriate .

It’s the real distances covered extra quickly by just a simple rise of 10 knots over what you and your brain are used to .
As said 80 mph and 77 or 83 are not great % ages apart , single figures but 20 knots to 30 is a50 % difference and can be scary in daylight nevermind night .In fact at night he would have ( his brain ) been even more disconnected with the feeling of speed making the real distance covered difference over what he thought he had covered worse .

He was not expecting to be anywhere near that buoy in the time he was running especially when he speeded up trying to phaff with the controls , the boat just munched up the sea distance far faster than his brain from years of local knowledge ,pissing about in sailboats , D and SD motor boats or slug FB low knot planers - could compute .

He should have pootled out at below 1000 rpm at his pre previous experience speeds around 8-12 knots, then clear of hazards let rip there further out .I say that if he / they think it’s safe to run @ 1800 rpm in a Pershing which would equate to N of 35 knots .Personally I would not in those waters .
I’ve sailed a bit around the CI ,s btw.

Opening say a boat like Piers Fleming to 1800 rpm would be safer obviously guess rise from 8 pottle to 12/15 cruise - all in the dark .
Personally I could really never do a fast cruse because of fear of the list of hazards . Even with local knowledge.
In the few occasions I have been out in the dark ( fire works etc ) we D speeded it , chickening out .

A 3 rd point for those with little local knowledge is that you do pour over the charts and guide books / pilots when out of your comfort zone .And you would have arrived in suffient time to fully prep for the trip .
So for the ave forum member if you got off the plane and took a taxi to the marina I bet the journey ( with understanding tides ) would have been uneventful, because of the shear background research .
 
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Re: Pershing 62 sinks

There's only way I would be happy to cruise in poor viz at 20+ kts, and that's with a cruise ship.
Except when its being driven by Captain Schettino?
Well, as I understand he was actually good at entertaining guests and make them happy... :rolleyes:
Which is what Carnival is really interested in, at the end of the day - including the flyby exhibition, which was a hardly justifiable routine performance, but one they were well aware of.
The bigger mistake of that muppet Captain which THEY appointed (let's not forget that!) was in not letting his more competent crew handle that, rather than overindulge his own competence... :ambivalence:
 
Re: Pershing 62 sinks

The point I was making was not the absolute speed for the conditions, which I agree like many others was inappropriate.
But THAT is the real point.
I understood yours on relative differences, and I'm not arguing with it. But that's a second instance problem, so to speak.
That chap obviously thought it's OK to cruise at 20+ kts in those conditions, while most of us agree it isn't.

Once you think it's fine to cruise at a speed which is already enough to have catastrophic consequences in case of collision with just about anything (and in this sense I was saying that it's different for a cruise ship, to which that buoy would have barely scratched the varnish, if that), you can as well go even faster.
If nothing else, by making 40 rather than 20kts, you cut in half the time of risk exposure... :rolleyes: :p
 
Re: Pershing 62 sinks

There seems to be an assumption here that the skipper didn't understand or have experience with the Pershing's drives... from what I've read here it appears to me that he's the same skipper that put the boat alongside us in St Helier two seasons ago, young chap, nice guy, obviously competent in close quarters at least, but as that was two years back (and he'd just arrived back that pm from St Malo in moderate weather) I'd suggest that to take that the drives were distracting him might be a bit of a stretch.
I reckon the points about being somewhat complacent in his local waters, the fading light, maybe bright internal screens etc... all added up to put him away from where he'd thought he was, what a shame he didn't see that flashing green.
 
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Re: Pershing 62 sinks

Yup J, but that's an aid to route tracing, and you are supposed to check the results before confirming that you are fine with them and eventually go for it.
Recalculating the route in real time after an alteration, in order to avoid obstacles which weren't along the original route but now potentially pop up due to the alteration (which is what petem envisaged) is a very different kettle of fish.
Not that I see reasons why it couldn't be done technically, mind.
I just don't think I would approve it, if I were in charge of Garmin legal dept... :rolleyes:


Garmin does not allow reset of cross track error ( or didnt) so its your only option with that kit.

Did it work. It did and i thought it was brilliant. Other than short trips I did always do a high level check of what it was upto - but to be fair never found anything wrong with it.
 
Re: Pershing 62 sinks

You are getting side tracked ( scuse the pun ) with the tech Garmin stuff .
That’s nought to do with it apart from the generality of ALL screens being a distraction DAY and NIGHT .
Also the insurance side debate is a none entity imho .” ALL RISK s “

It’s the huge local knowledge that lead to complacency.
“ I know my way around here “
Thus let’s face it does he really need to passage plan , set up a course , pour over charts before departing etc etc ? I don,t think so .
Would not have changed the outcome imho .

Put it this way I know every nook n cranny 40 miles W+E of La Napoule, St Trop to Monaco , every reef every marker ,ever port approach .

What caught him out was the type of boat a fast planning Arnesons and I reckon he did not how figure much time it would be In bow high attitude exaggerated by poor ( guessing 1st time ) control of the trim of the drives .
Not being able to match the boat rpm ,speed AND bow attitude.

He would have wondered why ( maybe a few secs say 10/15 ) before impact why the bow was still high .
Looking down at the rpm screens and Arnies trim guage and the speedo with his hand on the throttles and trim control.

So no hands on the wheel as he’s trying to figure for the 1st time how to do it .Not wanting to upset the owner with a tight turn is BS .
Eyes off the windscreen - buts the bows up anyhow Fwds and side ways disoriented due to the darkness .

Hands off the wheel .

No A/P or pre plan route entered beforehand for a guide .He doesn’t really need one being a local .

I never do any preplanning or look at the plotter , when local ( within 40 mikes ) Why should I ?
As said been sailing in MY waters for 15 years .

Just another point I like the “ 10 knot skipper in a 20 knot boat “ used above by Uricanejack in post #137

There a huge difference between for me doing 34 + knots and say 24 knots in a BUSY sea .
By busy let’s lump all the hazards in one group = if you hit = disaster.
Rocks , shoals , islands , other traffic , pots , water skiers ,kayaks,paddle boards debris etc etc .
Its the other traffic when I,am cruising over 30 knots I know it’s only a few more over say 22 but your thinking time seems to have shrunk , head down at the dash and with a closing speed of say target 21 knots atypical Med FB and me 32 knots that’s 53 knots or 60 mph , a mile a min .
You deffo need a second pair of eyes .As you are covering sea distance very quickly, faster than you think .
When you adjust your course for the 1 st target to avoid very quickly ( in a busy area ) there’s a 2nd now “ ON “ so to speak .

The incoming vessel, then the buoy in this case .

Slowing down makes a huge disproportionate difference to thinking and reacting time .

Sometimes I give in going fast in a “ busy “ area it’s just too stressful or the 2nd pair wants to be relieved of duties .

Think motorway all about 80 mph , maybe some 83 , some 73 , easy to anticipate ( ok same Dir - buts the thinking time if somebody shifts lane )
Then a slip road on , with an old fart doing 40 into 80 traffic , the % different 100% makes it feel dangerous .
So 10 to 20 or 20 to 30+ knots for those that don,t or can’t go ( cruise ) that fast that’s the constant feeling if you are out of step speed wise with the average around you .

This guy was not used to moving on water at that speed on top of the I reckon extended bow up attitude cos he couldn’t figure out the Arnies .
He knew exactly where the buoy was along with all the other hazards just mentally could not compute the distance the boat was covering in the time running .
It’s true he did not see it because he was not looking for it thought he was in another bit of the coast .
That's a load of supposition and guesswork masquerading as analysis. The skipper had been running that boat for the whole season (at least) and it was in use every few days on that stretch of coast. It was berthed right outside my window so I know this. No way was it the skipper's first time on Arnies.

It feels far more likely, from the report, that skipper lost his situational awareness which any experienced night sailor knows can happen. You have to be very disciplined in telling yourself not to believe you are where you think you are, and you must cross check before deciding where you are. These days x-check is to plotter and radar, as well as the second pair of eyes if reliable. Only when you have done that should you speed up beyond 6-8 knots or whatever. All imho of course.
 
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Re: Pershing 62 sinks

Garmin does not allow reset of cross track error ( or didnt) ....
I thought that too j but discovered that it does very easily, just not obvious. Can't remember well enough to post now- I'll check when next in boat and report back if anyone interested.
 
Re: Pershing 62 sinks

There seems to be an assumption here that the skipper didn't understand or have experience with the Pershing's drives... from what I've read here it appears to me that he's the same skipper that put the boat alongside us in St Helier two seasons ago, young chap, nice guy, obviously competent in close quarters at least, but as that was two years back (and he'd just arrived back that pm from St Malo in moderate weather) I'd suggest that to take that the drives were distracting him might be a bit of a stretch.
I reckon the points about being somewhat complacent in his local waters, the fading light, maybe bright internal screens etc... all added up to put him away from where he'd thought he was, what a shame he didn't see that flashing green.
Exactly, imho. Experienced guy, experienced on that actual boat, but lost knowledge of where he was and failed to cure that before speeding up.
 
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