Boat Show musings.

[Crowblack]

Yes I know it's a while ago, (the Boat Show) but somethings cropped up to get me thinking.

Had latest boat for couple of seasons now and it's got a quite nice little 27hp three cylinder Vetus engine, based on a Mitsubishi.

Wandered onto the Vetus stand at the show to see what their latest version of same engine might look like just in case in the future wanted to re-engine.

Discovered various upgrades, most looked good plus it has exactly same footprint, exhaust etc as existing engine so a direct swop.

One of the changes though is that the new version has an electrical fuel pump - all previous boats have had mechanical pumps and been pretty bomb proof.

Question is - in the environment boats operate in are electrical fuel pumps as efficient (robust and long lived) as "old timer" mechanical one's ?

 

[Tranona]

My new Beta also has an electric fuel pump. Seems to be the trend driven by the needs of the base engines main industrial market. Mechanical pumps are perhaps not a trouble free as one might think.

The Vetus (and the near identical Sole) were on my list but I was put off by the poor access to the water pump (backward facing) and filters (oil towards the rear on the starboard side and fuel on the back of the cylinder head). The base engine is small (952 cc) compared with its competitors and maximum output about 10% less. Dealers were reluctant to quote because of unreliable supply and for one dealer warranty problems.

 

[dunedin]

Regarding “the environment boats operate in” I have 2 litre Diesel engines in both boat and car……..

- the car engine and all its electrics and electronics gets blasted by water - and salt water from the road - extremely regularly, as it is open to the road below the bonnet. In spite of looking after, it is always coated in dirty residues from this severe hosing, and in winter generally has white marks of salt round the engine. (NB I have been advised that better to only clean gently, and more active cleaning or worse power washing will only make things worse)

- the boat engine sits inside the cabin in a dry engine bay, with a GRP tray underneath. Never been wet on the outside, and never been exposed to salt. Paintwork still gleaming in spite of never needing to be cleaned.

I think most boat engines have a much easier life than car engines, water and salt wise.

Similarly an electric fuel pump should have an easier life on a boat, if sensibly sited, than many car ones do

 

[Tranona]

That is very true, particularly of modern boats. Perhaps views of the environment are formed based on older style boats that leaked and had shaft seals that by design squirted seawater in the direction of the engine. We see photos here of shabby engine bays and corroded engines from time to time, but usually on older boats.

Was looking the other day at the Kubota engine in my mates mini digger. Filthy with dust and oil mist but still running reliably after more than 15 years. Probably runs more hours in a month than a typical auxiliary runs in a year. The big negatives for boat engines are running seawater through them and the cycle of short runs followed by long periods of inactivity.

 

[mjcoon]

Presumably an electric fuel pump starts pumping fuel from the tank ("lift pump") as soon as the power is turned on. Whereas a mechanical pump will rely on the engine being turned over to prime the system. No idea whether this ever makes a difference in practice...

 

[Tranona]

It makes bleeding the system much easier. Briefly press the starter button and the pump runs but the engine does not fire. Then you have pressure to bleed without groping down in the bowels to find the lever - and hope the engine is not stopped in a position where the lever does not work! Of course this is largely theoretical as with a well maintained engine bleeding should not be necessary.

 

[Kukri]

It makes bleeding the system much easier. Briefly press the starter button and the pump runs but the engine does not fire. Then you have pressure to bleed without groping down in the bowels to find the lever - and hope the engine is not stopped in a position where the lever does not work! Of course this is largely theoretical as with a well maintained engine bleeding should not be necessary.

… assuming you don’t have an air bleed into the fuel line… don’t ask me how I know this…

 

[smert]

… assuming you don’t have an air bleed into the fuel line… don’t ask me how I know this…

Preach!

Our 26 year old engine has an electric pump which died when it was fighting against an air leak

 

[michael_w]

My old boat had a Mitsubishi based engine (Westerbeke) with an electric lift pump and was self-bleeding to boot. The current ride has a Yanmar which seems rather primitive.

 

[BabaYaga]

My new Beta also has an electric fuel pump. Seems to be the trend driven by the needs of the base engines main industrial market. Mechanical pumps are perhaps not a trouble free as one might think.

Out of interest, are you saying that electric fuel pumps is now standard on Beta's small engine range?
If so, it seems they should update their sales brochures...
B25 HE DataSheet REV 05 1121

 

[Kukri]

My old boat had a Mitsubishi based engine (Westerbeke) with an electric lift pump and was self-bleeding to boot. The current ride has a Yanmar which seems rather primitive.

Mine has a Yanmar 5JH4E which has both; it’s ten years old. New fuel pumps are cheaper than I had feared…DAMHIKT…

 

[Tranona]

Out of interest, are you saying that electric fuel pumps is now standard on Beta's small engine range?
If so, it seems they should update their sales brochures...
B25 HE DataSheet REV 05 1121

No - only that my 30 which was built in August this year has an electric pump. When ir was commissioned a lot of bleeding was required because it drew a lot of contaminated fuel from the tank (long story) so the commissioning engineer showed me how to bleed it - with the emphasis on energising the pump with a short press of the start button.

It could well be that other Kubota engines will follow suit - or have changed, but as you say their generic small engine spec still shows mechanical even though there are 6 different base engines in the under 40hp range.

 

[Crowblack]

The Vetus (and the near identical Sole) were on my list but I was put off by the poor access to the water pump (backward facing) and filters (oil towards the rear on the starboard side and fuel on the back of the cylinder head). The base engine is small (952 cc) compared with its competitors and maximum output about 10% less. Dealers were reluctant to quote because of unreliable supply and for one dealer warranty problems.

Tranona, thanks for your response.

I'm a big fan of Beta having re-engined a previous boat with one, this boat however was built (in Holland) to accommodate the Vetus and all the problems you mention about filters and impeller with good access pretty much all around are not an issue.

Current Vetus engine in the boat at 27hp is an original builder upgrade, Beta advise the 25hp for my boat which has a smaller capacity than the Vetus.

I'm in contact with a Vetus dealer and not been advised so far there's a problem with suppy for instal over the winter - proof of the pudding I suppose.

 

[Crowblack]

Similarly an electric fuel pump should have an easier life on a boat, if sensibly sited, than many car ones do

Thanks, interested in "if sensibly sited" comment - - - water has not been an issue with any of my boats and the bilge in current boat is bone dry, would you perhaps mean if the pump is fixed to the engine or not ?

Does it make a difference if the pump is engine mounted ?

 

[Tranona]

Tranona, thanks for your response.

I'm a big fan of Beta having re-engined a previous boat with one, this boat however was built (in Holland) to accommodate the Vetus and all the problems you mention about filters and impeller with good access pretty much all around are not an issue.

Current Vetus engine in the boat at 27hp is an original builder upgrade, Beta advise the 25hp for my boat which has a smaller capacity than the Vetus.

I'm in contact with a Vetus dealer and not been advised so far there's a problem with suppy for instal over the winter - proof of the pudding I suppose.

The Beta 25 is a bit of an oddy but fulfils a purpose in many boats that originally had Bukh 20s and Volvo 2002s which were really too small (Westerly Fulmar is an example with a displacement of around 4.5 tonnes) The Vetus, however tries to compete with the 29hp (Volvo, Nanni, Yanmar, Beta) which are mostly 1100cc+. Below 5 tonnes displacement a 25/7 is OK but once you go over that you really need the full 29hp to get hull speed. Rather simplistic as it also depends on what size propeller you can swing, but to give you an example from my project. The boat (5.4 tonnes) needs 27hp to get hull speed, but with a 25 or 27 it is difficult to swing a 17" prop which is what the boat needs. In fact the starting point for working out the best power train is the ideal propeller size, which is what we did and then work back to the hp and shaft speed required which determines the reduction ratio. Arriving at a perfect match is actually quite difficult on small yachts because of the big increments in change in hp as you go up the range - for example Volvo jump from 19 to 29hp. So my last boat had a 19 as standard which would not meet hull speed and 29 as an option which did comfortably. In light use it does not make much difference except 5,5 knots cruising was at 2100 with the bigger engine and 2400 with the smaller. Unsurprisingly most owners paid the extra £1100 for the larger engine!

On the supply front, when I first started this project last summer you could get any engine off the shelf, and there was reasonable supply of used engines as well. By the time I bought the boat in November used engines had disappeared and the only new engine I could get immediate delivery was in fact a Vetus - but only 2 left, next delivery March. When I finally made up my mind which way to go, the delivery on the Beta was 3 months (although in reality it did not arrive until August!) and the price had gone up nearly 15%! Volvo and Nanni were similar delivery times. Not sure the supply problems have been resolved in general for the same reasons there are shortages of cars.

Maybe the economic uncertainty will mean some delay their re-engine projects and ease the pressure on supply.

 

[Arcady]

I fitted the 4 cylinder version of that Vetus engine (M4-42, IIRC) a few years ago. It was a fine engine and the self bleeding electric fuel pump never once gave me any concerns. At the time it was excellent value for money compared to some more popular brands. I’d happily buy another.

 

[Crowblack]

The Beta 25 is a bit of an oddy but fulfils a purpose in many boats that originally had Bukh 20s and Volvo 2002s which were really too small (Westerly Fulmar is an example with a displacement of around 4.5 tonnes) The Vetus, however tries to compete with the 29hp (Volvo, Nanni, Yanmar, Beta) which are mostly 1100cc+. Below 5 tonnes displacement a 25/7 is OK but once you go over that you really need the full 29hp to get hull speed. Rather simplistic as it also depends on what size propeller you can swing, but to give you an example from my project. The boat (5.4 tonnes) needs 27hp to get hull speed, but with a 25 or 27 it is difficult to swing a 17" prop which is what the boat needs. In fact the starting point for working out the best power train is the ideal propeller size, which is what we did and then work back to the hp and shaft speed required which determines the reduction ratio. Arriving at a perfect match is actually quite difficult on small yachts because of the big increments in change in hp as you go up the range - for example Volvo jump from 19 to 29hp. So my last boat had a 19 as standard which would not meet hull speed and 29 as an option which did comfortably. In light use it does not make much difference except 5,5 knots cruising was at 2100 with the bigger engine and 2400 with the smaller. Unsurprisingly most owners paid the extra £1100 for the larger engine!

On the supply front, when I first started this project last summer you could get any engine off the shelf, and there was reasonable supply of used engines as well. By the time I bought the boat in November used engines had disappeared and the only new engine I could get immediate delivery was in fact a Vetus - but only 2 left, next delivery March. When I finally made up my mind which way to go, the delivery on the Beta was 3 months (although in reality it did not arrive until August!) and the price had gone up nearly 15%! Volvo and Nanni were similar delivery times. Not sure the supply problems have been resolved in general for the same reasons there are shortages of cars.

Maybe the economic uncertainty will mean some delay their re-engine projects and ease the pressure on supply.

Thanks for full response.

Really interesting and makes sense to have chosen the 30hp Beta.

For me though with a bit over 8mts long keeler, standard displacement 3.4 tonnes (cruising probably rather more) and Featherstream advising a 15 inch prop, sticking with Vetus seems a sensible choice - - particularly as all the elements of the footprint remain the same.

I would be interest to hear where your electric pump is mounted - I'm assuming on the engine. Would it suffer from less vibration (last longer) if it was mounted on a bulkhead - maybe I'm over thinking things.

 

[Kukri]

Thanks for full response.

Really interesting and makes sense to have chosen the 30hp Beta.

For me though with a bit over 8mts long keeler, standard displacement 3.4 tonnes (cruising probably rather more) and Featherstream advising a 15 inch prop, sticking with Vetus seems a sensible choice - - particularly as all the elements of the footprint remain the same.

I would be interest to hear where your electric pump is mounted - I'm assuming on the engine. Would it suffer from less vibration (last longer) if it was mounted on a bulkhead - maybe I'm over thinking things.

Mine’s on the engine. I’m happy with it there, as it avoids a flexible hose on the pressure side of the pump.