Boat pricing

[Soco2]

Soco2, I'm assuming this Phantom 42 is with solent motor yachts, have you considered the Azimut 39 they also have listed, as the prices are similar, but the Azi looks in great condition without the damage / repairs to be concerned about.

Hi, thanks yes we did actually view this, it is an interesting design but it’s just a bit to Italian for me. Wasn’t a fan of some of the materials and unfortunately on the day the floor near the kitchen (carpet)was wet through. Definitely am a Fairline or princess type of guy ?

 

[Soco2]

Nope because if you can find out that it was repaired after a severe grounding then so can anybody else, especially now that you've put this thread up on an open forum. The other thing you have to ask yourself is why the owner has put it up for sale so soon after the incident. Was he not happy with the repair?

Its not even as if the price is all that attractive either (if I'm looking at the right ad). With so many other nice sound boats out there on the market I'm not sure why you'd even consider this one

I was told of the reason and it sounded genuine. Also the fact it doesn’t get used.
Anyway yes I agree with you. It might put a prospective buyer off in the future like it is me so probably best to not go there.
the only reason I considers it was that it was the right size and what we were looking for out of a boat. It’s the only one in the uk (for sale) so had to have a long think.

as for price yes it’s not attractive at all.
The boat will have been bought for £100k couple of years ago and now it’s up for £120k
I could understand if there had been lots of updates/upgrades etc!

 

[petem]

The boat will have been bought for £100k couple of years ago and now it’s up for £120k
I could understand if there had been lots of updates/upgrades etc!

I know prices have hardened for Targas of that age so I wouldn't be surprised if the same has happened for Phantoms.

 

[Soco2]

I know prices have hardened for Targas of that age so I wouldn't be surprised if the same has happened for Phantoms.

It’s strange and I don’t know why that would be? They are getting older but going up in value quicker than inflation?
I have seen boats sit for 6 months to a year and not sell for there inflated price. Which means there can’t be much demand for certain boats ? Always under the impression of supply and demand drove a market?
I also note that it is quite common that 10-20% is knocked off for the sale?

 

[petem]

The

It’s strange and I don’t know why that would be? They are getting older but going up in value quicker than inflation?
I have seen boats sit for 6 months to a year and not sell for there inflated price. Which means there can’t be much demand for certain boats ? Always under the impression of supply and demand drove a market?
I also note that it is quite common that 10-20% is knocked off for the sale?

There's a shortage of good second hand Fairlines for sale in the 30-45 foot size (perhaps bigger too) but that doesn't mean that overpriced tat will sell. You have to compare the price of a boat with its competitors, not what prices were a few years ago. You can certainly try ad get 10-20% off the discount price but if a boat has been well looked after and presented then a seller may hold out for his asking price.

 

[Portofino]

The boat will have been bought for £100k couple of years ago and now it’s up for £120k
I could understand if there had been lots of updates/upgrades etc!

Appreciation is possible with boats and even cars if you study the markets carefully with an open mind and minimal preconceptions.
eg every Ferrari ( on my 3 rd ) has appreciated by 10 s of thousands .....so it’s like free motoring when you tot it up on exit .
Fun too not exactly slumming it !
Boat too my Itama ....asking prices are approaching 50 % of what I paid in 2014 .......again fun using it , dont think we have compromised anything .I looked at build numbers , competitors, reputation , desirability etc etc .
Resisted temptation to sink / loose more £ on another Fairprinseeker .

Whats happening here with Ph s is the cost to buy new is so high and out of many folks reach ,that’s there a sub section in the market of affordable small Brit FB boats ....easily maintained and relatively low cost to run .....berthing / fuel useable etc .
The buyer base with under or around £200 K to spend is huge compared to £1M ish for new 45 .
And it’s set to get larger as new drifts upwards .

 

[sharpness]

Hi, thanks yes we did actually view this, it is an interesting design but it’s just a bit to Italian for me. ...... Definitely am a Fairline or princess type of guy ?

I don't blame you, though I'm going to be biased as I've owned a Fairline previously, and I'm now a Princess owner.

You may have already seen them, but below are links for Princess 40 and Phantom 43, and Phantom 38..

Princess 40 for sale UK, Princess boats for sale, Princess used boat sales, Princess Motor Boats For Sale 2000 PRINCESS 40 - Apollo Duck

Fairline Phantom 43 for sale UK, Fairline boats for sale, Fairline used boat sales, Fairline Motor Boats For Sale 2002 Fairline Phantom 43 - Apollo Duck

Fairline boats for sale UK, used Fairline boats for sale, free photo ads - Apollo Duck

 

[Soco2]

I don't blame you, though I'm going to be biased as I've owned a Fairline previously, and I'm now a Princess owner.

You may have already seen them, but below are links for Princess 40 and Phantom 43, and Phantom 38..

Princess 40 for sale UK, Princess boats for sale, Princess used boat sales, Princess Motor Boats For Sale 2000 PRINCESS 40 - Apollo Duck

Fairline Phantom 43 for sale UK, Fairline boats for sale, Fairline used boat sales, Fairline Motor Boats For Sale 2002 Fairline Phantom 43 - Apollo Duck

Fairline boats for sale UK, used Fairline boats for sale, free photo ads - Apollo Duck

Thanks, I have viewed two of the ph38’s already and am viewing another at the weekend.
I am finding more about the princess this week but question it’s tax status.
The ph43 is over budget for me as much as I like it.
What does everyone think the ph42 is worth?.

 

[Soco2]

Appreciation is possible with boats and even cars if you study the markets carefully with an open mind and minimal preconceptions.
eg every Ferrari ( on my 3 rd ) has appreciated by 10 s of thousands .....so it’s like free motoring when you tot it up on exit .
Fun too not exactly slumming it !
Boat too my Itama ....asking prices are approaching 50 % of what I paid in 2014 .......again fun using it , dont think we have compromised anything .I looked at build numbers , competitors, reputation , desirability etc etc .
Resisted temptation to sink / loose more £ on another Fairprinseeker .

Whats happening here with Ph s is the cost to buy new is so high and out of many folks reach ,that’s there a sub section in the market of affordable small Brit FB boats ....easily maintained and relatively low cost to run .....berthing / fuel useable etc .
The buyer base with under or around £200 K to spend is huge compared to £1M ish for new 45 .
And it’s set to get larger as new drifts upwards .

This is ok if the boat or any vehicle is kept in good serviceable condition. A cat d Ferrari with no service history and a few scratches won’t appreciate. Also what happens after uk leaves eu and boats effectively devalue compared to eu boats?

 

[andy59]

I would try to find out who did the repair and if done by one of the well known yards like Desty or Osmotech then would be less worried about hull issues, but would be be more concerned about the engine that was shock loaded and dragged backwards, unless an engineer could show that something in the drive train parted to reduce that shock. Phantom 42 is a nice boat and well regarded so if its a nice example it could be good value boating if you can buy it right. The thing is, and to be fair to him, the vendor will need to be happy with the offer so its basically down to negotiation, what would you pay with no damage?.

 

[Portofino]

This is ok if the boat or any vehicle is kept in good serviceable condition. A cat d Ferrari with no service history and a few scratches won’t appreciate. Also what happens after uk leaves eu and boats effectively devalue compared to eu boats?

Agree with the cat D or any other insurance cat .Yes I,am talking clean examples .....the resale point mentioned above .
Ironic on the effects on car values and boat values .....would have thought similar effects on residuals .
Its not an area that I would knowingly wade into ...car or boat tbh .

That’s what folks are saying here with this boat .Although the boat insurance repair industry is not formalised like the car ( or as transparent btw ) the history with this could be problematic when it comes time to offload .
Assuming best case repair scenario it’s the perception that’s the problem imho .
like the car insurance cat ( which ever cat ) this boats price ought to reflect .It will be hard to sell on .Not agreeing with that it’s just a fact however well reputed the repairer is / was ?

As for the question of post Brexit values .
Depends if EU folks are allowed to buy used UK boats....with the caveat easily . .Secondly if it’s worth there while ....depends on the local F ex .
By “ easily “ if the a new system does not present a virtually insurmountable pile of bureaucracy .Wait n see !
But surely that’s not on your tick list with boat ? It’s value post Brexit ?

The ins repair cloud from the grounding is the big fish to fry here ?

Is there not now a greater incentive to buy a “clean one “in Fr , Sp or IT and bring it back ......with all its VAT paid reg / de reg status , thats easy and transparent for all to see ?
For all to see means in the future you can hold the option of re selling back into the EU as it was a EU VAT paid ( uber documented ) example being born by the first owner in the EU .
Returning a EU VAT paid boat after a “ temporary stay “ in the U.K. has gotta be a seamless process compared to attempting to export / send UK born boat into Euroland after Boris deal ?

If sterling rises you offload to a home buyer .Beauty of a fairprinseeker .
If sterling tanks relative to the euro and your boat is “ easily “ re imported back to the EU then you may be able to command a higher residual price to sell to a EU person . As as said it’s an ex EU so may have a smooth path .Thats a worth while gamble at the moment .
My advice bring a “ clean “ example back from the EU before 2021 .

 

[Chris H]

Appreciation is possible with boats and even cars if you study the markets carefully with an open mind and minimal preconceptions.
eg every Ferrari ( on my 3 rd ) has appreciated by 10 s of thousands .....so it’s like free motoring when you tot it up on exit .
Fun too not exactly slumming it !
Boat too my Itama ....asking prices are approaching 50 % of what I paid in 2014 .......again fun using it , dont think we have compromised anything .I looked at build numbers , competitors, reputation , desirability etc etc .
Resisted temptation to sink / loose more £ on another Fairprinseeker .

Whats happening here with Ph s is the cost to buy new is so high and out of many folks reach ,that’s there a sub section in the market of affordable small Brit FB boats ....easily maintained and relatively low cost to run .....berthing / fuel useable etc .
The buyer base with under or around £200 K to spend is huge compared to £1M ish for new 45 .
And it’s set to get larger as new drifts upwards .

Any Ferrari bought in the last 18 months and you’d be looking at a huge loss.

 

[Portofino]

Any Ferrari bought in the last 18 months and you’d be looking at a huge loss.

Same for the majority of new cars .....and boats for that matter ...100% agree .
Not a great investment strategy I don’t think it ever was ,...buying new .

 

[Chris H]

Same for the majority of new cars .....and boats for that matter ...100% agree .
Not a great investment strategy I don’t think it ever was ,...buying new .

The money I lost on my McLaren 720 would have paid half the Pershing !

 

[Soco2]

I looked at a boat in U.K. and it doesn’t have proof of original vat payment. Just builders cirt. And bills of sale. It was in the eu but now back in the U.K. and apparently has the de registration documents from the eu country it came from.
Broker said this proves vat has been paid but is this really the case or is it a grey area and would you avoid?

The Rya says:
If the vessel was purchased from a non-VAT registered private individual, you must hold a copy1 of the original sales invoice(s) showing the amount of VAT that was paid on the initial sale, as well as a copy of the documentation evidencing the subsequent sale(s) between non-VAT registered private individuals where no VAT will have been due.

 

[kashurst]

Which country was it previously registered in, and what does the de-registration document say?
Don't accept the brokers word on this, you need to see it. In the past when I have been looking at possible boats the brokers often say "oh yes its vat paid," "can I see the receipt?" somehow its gone AWOL and they only own up to it after you have shelled out on a survey etc. Now I make it clear no vat receipt/no evidence, no viewing.

 

[volvopaul]

That boat has a double skin with a liner glued to the outer hull .Separating the two skins is a grid of foam , a matrix .
When new it’s very strong and saves weight.
When “ injured “ its nye on impossible for a surveyor to check every foam part of the bonded in grid / matrix for delamination .
A surveyor s report ( for the sake of liability) will come back with many provisos and disclaimers .....ie tell you nothing as he can not commit , because he can,t access enough spaces between the outer hull laminate and inner hull liners to say yeh or neigh.

Having said that it might be perfectly fixed ......but you just don’t know or will never know for certain .

Porto, the Fairline Phantom 42 in question in this post does not have an inner and outer skin.
The boat in question is a traditional built Fairline whereby the hull is moulded with stringers and plywood bulkheads which are bonded to the hull with chop strand material etc .
On this boat and many other makes of this era you can clearly inspect the hull fittings , p brackets , stern gear etc for any sign of movement . I have good information on this boat including the company that repaired it and how effective the repair was, plus all the woes that went along with it .

OP don’t confuse this type and era of boat with a more modern , Sealine, Jeanneau , Cranchi, Beneteau.
The Fairline and Princess boats of this era were built by hand layup to the hull and topsides.

The last boat I had a 2004 Phantom 43 had a few mouldings inserted up front and a bit the water tanks sat on but the rest of the hull was purely a hull finish including the engine bay .

 

[Portofino]

Porto, the Fairline Phantom 42 in question in this post does not have an inner and outer skin.
The boat in question is a traditional built Fairline whereby the hull is moulded with stringers and plywood bulkheads which are bonded to the hull with chop strand material etc .
On this boat and many other makes of this era you can clearly inspect the hull fittings , p brackets , stern gear etc for any sign of movement . I have good information on this boat including the company that repaired it and how effective the repair was, plus all the woes that went along with it .

OP don’t confuse this type and era of boat with a more modern , Sealine, Jeanneau , Cranchi, Beneteau.
The Fairline and Princess boats of this era were built by hand layup to the hull and topsides.

The last boat I had a 2004 Phantom 43 had a few mouldings inserted up front and a bit the water tanks sat on but the rest of the hull was purely a hull finish including the engine bay .

Nice to know the distinction,Thx for the clarity .
More importantly good info for the Op in his deliberations.

 

[Soco2]

Which country was it previously registered in, and what does the de-registration document say?
Don't accept the brokers word on this, you need to see it. In the past when I have been looking at possible boats the brokers often say "oh yes its vat paid," "can I see the receipt?" somehow its gone AWOL and they only own up to it after you have shelled out on a survey etc. Now I make it clear no vat receipt/no evidence, no viewing.

Italy, I don’t know what the document has on it, I doubt it shows proof of original tax being paid though. The broker was slightly vague but my understanding was you needed the original or copy of the actual vat receipt/invoice etc? so I would have to go and view really.

 

[Portofino]

Italy, I don’t know what the document has on it, I doubt it shows proof of original tax being paid though. The broker was slightly vague but my understanding was you needed the original or copy of the actual vat receipt/invoice etc? so I would have to go and view really.

Theses plenty of threads on buying a boat in Italy privately .
A good analogy for UK folk is think DVLA and cars. .......the V5 reg doc .

When a private person buys a boat in Italy it has to be registered.Each area had a port reg office (the U.K. which has a central car reg office in Swansea ) To reg it it needs proof of tax s paid .
Your UK car dealer takes care of the tax formalities when first reg with Swansea ......getting the V5 .From then onwards nobodies worried about if the car is tax paid at future changes of ownership.

In Italy the equivalent boat doc is actually a blue book with a few pages of boat data again think of the various car data in your V5 .

So walk into any car dealer ship or ring up a private U.K. seller of a car and ask the same Q
“ is it tax paid “ or “ what docs does it come with to prove VAT is paid “
Make a prat of yourself in a U.K. car dealership insisting to see evidence of its “ tax paid “ etc
The guy will say “ it’s got just a V5“

Nobody in Italy with boats with a blue book or in the UK with cars with a V5 worries or even enters a conversation about VAT paid when doing a sale .
Thats why IT brokers sound vague .
In both cases the Italian boat and UK car to obtain those documents all relevant taxes inc VAT have been paid before Swansea issue the V5 or the Italian reg port issues the blue book to a private individual.

The similarities are also there when you change ownership with ( the V5 ( UK car ) and Italian blue book ....you or the broker sends the book off at change of ownership and the seller de registered ,
You receive a dereg cert from the previous owner and keep a copy of the old blue book .

This is used to prove that any previous taxes have been paid .Keep copies on board .
You need to be an Italian citizen to keep it IT reg .
With the dereg cert they call it a funny name “ irradiation of the flag “ you can now go off and reg it part 1 or part 3 etc in Cardiff .

Hope this reassures you as to why IT brokers roll there eyes every time a Brit asks for a “VAT paid invoice “

They have a highly regulated boat reg system like the U.K. car reg system

UK boat wise is the Wild West in comparison. Hence the anxiety.........perfectly understood.