Sybarite
Well-Known Member
Post #29. eek, shades of RM.
Boat owning problems
- Thread starter Sybarite
- Start date
Post #29. eek, shades of RM.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Not necessarily the case.
Any comparison between Western France and South Coast UK is fundamentally flawed. The environments are completely different. Western France is remote, sparsely populated, dependent on agriculture and tourism and generally marinas and ports can be built with minimal dredging and with adequate shorebased facilities.
Compare that with South Coast UK where waterfront premises are at a premium and are in densely populated or industrialised areas where land values are high and there is heavy competition from other users, both residential and industrial. Many of the marinas are in intertidal zones and require extensive dredging to provide enough depth. Many of the locations also have environmental restrictions on development.
Your comparison with the northern part of the British Isles is much more valid and as you point out berthing costs are more comparable. Twister Ken rightly points out that the French equivalent of the UK south coast - the Med is also as expensive, or even more so than the UK.
Sybarite is correct - the lower costs and superior access to good cruising grounds means that more people can own modest boats than in the UK. However, the lower costs of facilities is a direct function of the lower capital value of land and foreshore, not because of greater efficiency or the organisational structures, except that pressure for increased economic activity in the area means that there are less formal barriers to developments.
Worth nailing the "subsidies" bit. The French government did indeed heavily subsidise the boat building industry, particularly pre 1992, both in helping create the manufacturing facilities, but particularly in significant tax brakes for professional individuals who financed boats for chartering in "developing" tourist markets. It was possible to offset the entire purchase cost against income in one year - so hardly surprising that most of the charter boats on the big fleets in places like Turkey and the Caribbean were owned by French doctors, dentists, lawyers etc. This regime continued well after 1992 until the EU eventually stopped it. The dominant position of Beneteau/Jeanneau stems from that policy.
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
Just a few precisions: the French had regional development aids as do most other countries. This was not specifically aimed at the marine sector but, as it happened a lot of French boat building takes place in areas that had suffered from the run-down or closing of other traditional industries.
As far as boat owning aids were concerned these related to France's overseas territories which, in the 80's were going through very difficult times. If boats were based in the DOM/TOM for a minimum of 5 ( or 7 ? ) years owners could write-off the cost against their other income. But, it was even better than that: they could also depreciate the boat in their operating costs which meant that up to 100% of the cost could be recovered in time. However, only relatively high worth individuals could benefit from this and you had a long period where you could not use your boat without paying. Charter fleets in Turkey or other non-French overseas locations were not concerned by these measures.
There was another tax provision for very large yachts which had a fully crewed service. In this case they were assimilated to hotels with normal commercial operations. If one chose the right form of company (a "société en nom collectif" in its marine form called a "quirat") one which is tax transparent, operating losses could flow up to again offset income from other sources. These boats had to operate out of French territory, whether in France or overseas.
One other precision about property values: France introduced strict development controls relating to building on the coast. The result is now that a coastal view property could be twice the value of a similar property a few hundred metres inland. This applies in Brittany and so I'm not sure the land value differential is as great as it might at first appear.
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JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
I see an awful lot of modest boats in my stamping grounds.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
The point is that the French government has been (and still is) very free with subsidies or incentives towards the boating industry. And you cannot ignore the massive marina developments along the Atlantic coast (and the Med - think Port Grimaud) that would simply not be possible along the South Coast of the UK.
chinita
Well-Known Member
I agree. I am on the waiting list for Sete. Number 49 (!) but they are still saying that something could come up in six months.
€1556.00 pa for 8m including VAT, water, electric and lift out.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
There are always exceptions to the generalities - I pay less than that for my 11m berth on the South Coast. Sete, nice though it is, maybe not high on the list for the typical SofF pleasure seekers!
chinita
Well-Known Member
I know, that is why I selected it!
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
Apologies for my previous reply to your post; i had in mind the other "Moulin" on the opposite side of the river. Indeed your Moulin is reputed as the best resto in Pont Aven. OTOH we had a wonderful meal last night in the resto at the Hôtel des Ajoncs d'Or.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I am glad the OP loves France so much
I am British & am more than happy with the way things work.
I am based in a reasonably priced marina on the east coast with all the facilities i love & there are spaces available
In spite of comments by others there is space for moorings nearby for local boats at reasonable prices ( i know i look after them)
I have an excellent area to cruise in but do often go abroad in the same way foreigners come here
I have no problems accessing the things I need
Local authorities do work hand in hand with leisure companies where possible & some developments are funded from outside the commercial community ( I am currently sitting in a harbour upgraded using EU grants)
Generally the free trade regime that we adopt in the UK works to our advantage. Unfortunately not with all aspects of yachting. But if you want you can still buy a really quality British built yacht if you try
So yes there are aspects of the French yachting scene that are better than here but there are a few things about the UK that make me happier to be British than French any day of the week
But to each his own
I am British & am more than happy with the way things work.
I am based in a reasonably priced marina on the east coast with all the facilities i love & there are spaces available
In spite of comments by others there is space for moorings nearby for local boats at reasonable prices ( i know i look after them)
I have an excellent area to cruise in but do often go abroad in the same way foreigners come here
I have no problems accessing the things I need
Local authorities do work hand in hand with leisure companies where possible & some developments are funded from outside the commercial community ( I am currently sitting in a harbour upgraded using EU grants)
Generally the free trade regime that we adopt in the UK works to our advantage. Unfortunately not with all aspects of yachting. But if you want you can still buy a really quality British built yacht if you try
So yes there are aspects of the French yachting scene that are better than here but there are a few things about the UK that make me happier to be British than French any day of the week
But to each his own
charles_reed
Well-Known Member
Not entirely true Ken - providing you are a permanent berth-holder. I was able to get a 10m berth for €1600 in Argeles. The monthly fee for for etrangers was €450 in season and €320 out of season.
Sybarite makes a valid point - the sailing infrastructure in France is a lot more economic than the UK - I even had a berth in Marans for the equivalent of £25/month, all inclusive.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Charles, accepted. Unfortunately Madame's family home is on the Cote d'Azur, which is what I mistakenly believe is the south of France. Obviously it's not all of it!
However, an entirely different mooring model seems to apply in most Cd'A marinas - you buy a short term (14 years seems common) lease on a berth, then pay annual taxes and fees on top of that. Not cheap, and the cost of the lease is pretty well unrecoverable - a wasting asset. The number of marinas offering annual or seasonal rentals seems very small, and consequently they are rather oversubscribed.
This one, for example, would suit us from most points of view, except the financial one
http://www.inwardsmarine.com/moorin...Napoule-South-of-France-11x3.78-INW100994.asp
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charles_reed
Well-Known Member
Yes I'd accept that from Toulon round to Sicily berthing is other-wordly expensive. Beating all of them is Marina Grande; Capri - 5 years ago 1 night started @ €150.
If you think the Cote dAzur is expensive, just try the Italian Riviera.
Just round the corner from la Napoule is the municipal marina @ S Philippe, that's comfortable and reasonably priced but you've got to livein the commune to have a berth.
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