Boat in build pics (2013 Fairline Squadron 78)

[colhel]

I've been lokking at going back to school (I'm 45) and doing a Marine Engineering course. My trade so far has been a machinist making anything from high pressure water pumps to engines for the Motor Sport industry. I've been doing this for around 25 years, 10 years of which were running my own business, and recently working freelance for other businesses. But all I am is a machinist, so, hence the reason for wanting to gain some form of qualification in an industry that intersets me. This thread seems a good place to seek out opinions on my thoughts and take any advice on this possible carreer change.

 

[LionsDen]

I've been lokking at going back to school (I'm 45) and doing a Marine Engineering course. My trade so far has been a machinist making anything from high pressure water pumps to engines for the Motor Sport industry. I've been doing this for around 25 years, 10 years of which were running my own business, and recently working freelance for other businesses. But all I am is a machinist, so, hence the reason for wanting to gain some form of qualification in an industry that intersets me. This thread seems a good place to seek out opinions on my thoughts and take any advice on this possible carreer change.

Hi Colin - Good to talk earlier today as always and we look forward to seeing you and H again soon...

May I suggest starting a separate thread to assist you in getting some possitive feedback...

 

[grumpy_o_g]

New glass helm stuff from Garmin plus a remote control for the touchscreens. http://garmin.blogs.com/pr/2013/02/integrating-the-look-and-feel-of-a-glass-helm-garmin-introduces-both-the-gpsmap-8000-mfd-and-gpsmap-.html.

I'm guessing you'll stick with what you've already planned jfm but I'm intrigued to know if there's anything in there that you'd like to have. I've never been clear about what advantage a glass helm has over discrete MFD's beyond larger displays possibly.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

I've been lokking at going back to school (I'm 45) and doing a Marine Engineering course. My trade so far has been a machinist making anything from high pressure water pumps to engines for the Motor Sport industry. I've been doing this for around 25 years, 10 years of which were running my own business, and recently working freelance for other businesses. But all I am is a machinist, so, hence the reason for wanting to gain some form of qualification in an industry that intersets me. This thread seems a good place to seek out opinions on my thoughts and take any advice on this possible carreer change.

My first thought is that you're actually getting a qualification rather than a career. Agree it's probably one for a new thread though - I'm sure you'd get a ton of feedback.

 

[matm]

Random thought (usual), Skeet/Clay off the boat and a built in power source from the bow for a skeet/clay trap. Does F/L have the option for a gun cabinet and associated storage for this? Obviously for when you get bored in Med of swimming and feel the need for re-enacting memories of cold, dark, drizzy, homeland? ;-)

 

[colhel]

Hi Colin - Good to talk earlier today as always and we look forward to seeing you and H again soon...

May I suggest starting a separate thread to assist you in getting some possitive feedback...

I don't know how to qoute two posts at the same time, so thanks grumpy og (I assume the og stands for old git?). Anyhow, best think of an excititng title for PBO. I posted here as this build contains a lot of bespoke as well as production engineering and it's pretty obvious there's some sharp thinking people contributing. I'll go now.

PS. Yes, catch up soon Terry.

 

[Hurricane]

I've never been clear about what advantage a glass helm has over discrete MFD's beyond larger displays possibly.

The big point for me is that you can feed loads of other systems into a glass bridge system - all "running in parallel".
This way they, generally, don't affect each other.
For example, I can do what I like to the PC feed without disturbing the integrity of the dedicated navigation system.
I've also powered my displays separately so, once these "parallel" systems are running you often don't need the nav system itself so the main processors can be shut down.

Example - the Valencia F1 - we didn't have a shore power supply so we were running on batteries being "topped up" with the generator.
There was absolutely no need for the main navigation system and all its instruments to be powered up but the displays were useful for TV feeds to cover the commentary.

 

[jfm]

In fact, I checked the specsheet, and in the 2nd page you can find the engine details:
http://www.cumminsonan.com/www/html/Common/pdf/specsheets/a-1494.pdf
It's indeed a 3.3 NA engine (they don't tell, but you're surely correct re. being it actually a Kubota), but rated for either 45 or 53 hp at 15/18 hundreds rpm respectively.
...talk about being spot on with my previous guess!

Oops, I stand corrected. Thanks. Yes, i see that makes more sense. FWIW I was running off memory (bad thing!) and I think i was mixing up with the 17.5kva model - that has a 2.2 litre 4 pot 36hp Kubota. I guess 40hp would push her along at a steady 4 knots or so, but I'd prefer if they had fitted something bigger like a 70hp diesel hydraulic pack or something.

 

[jfm]

Random thought (usual), Skeet/Clay off the boat and a built in power source from the bow for a skeet/clay trap. Does F/L have the option for a gun cabinet and associated storage for this? Obviously for when you get bored in Med of swimming and feel the need for re-enacting memories of cold, dark, drizzy, homeland? ;-)

Yes, they have already built one (recent) Sq78 with a full gun room. Not sure it floats my boat - I'll stick to Lasers and quadcopters

 

[jfm]

http://garmin.blogs.com/pr/2013/02/integrating-the-look-and-feel-of-a-glass-helm-garmin-introduces-both-the-gpsmap-8000-mfd-and-gpsmap-.html.

I'm guessing you'll stick with what you've already planned jfm .

Thanks gog. Yes and no. Garmin kindly shared some secrets with me about, and dimensions of, these 8000 series glass bridges a while ago. I couldn't mention on here. Both my dashboards are set up to take these new screens. I'm promised from Garmin 6 screens from the first shipment to UK. Also Garmin's GMI10 small 110mm square displays are also being replaced with black squares, GMI20, see picture on Garmin website. The grey ones you can see on the pics of my dash above will be replaced by these new ones. I might have a lot of new GMI10s to put on eBay. . The new "iDrive" remotes will be put into the armrests of my helm chairs - Garmin also alerted me to these a while ago so Fairline have already pre-wired the boat with the necessary N2K cabling ready to fit these gizmos into the tips of the armrests

 

[jfm]

The big point for me is that you can feed loads of other systems into a glass bridge system - all "running in parallel".
This way they, generally, don't affect each other.
For example, I can do what I like to the PC feed without disturbing the integrity of the dedicated navigation system.
I've also powered my displays separately so, once these "parallel" systems are running you often don't need the nav system itself so the main processors can be shut down.

Example - the Valencia F1 - we didn't have a shore power supply so we were running on batteries being "topped up" with the generator.
There was absolutely no need for the main navigation system and all its instruments to be powered up but the displays were useful for TV feeds to cover the commentary.

Apart from using your nav displays to show TV or a PC screen with the nav computer turned off (neither of which interest me at all, tbh), what else does glass bridge do Hurricane that linked MFDs wont do? I've tried for ages to find the answer to this question, without success. Eg see above re Hatteland

I'm thinking of fitting Garmin 8000 series linked MFDs, rahter than their 8500 series black box that displays on multiple glass bridge screens, hence the question

I believe Raymarine announced new glass bridge gear the same day as Garmin, replacing G series

 

[MapisM]

what else does glass bridge do Hurricane that linked MFDs wont do? I've tried for ages to find the answer to this question, without success.

I'll have to look for my coat after saying this, but I have a funny feeling that the reason why you didn't succeed is that none of the glass bridge producers will ever tell you that the real answer to your question is "nothing".
Which, truth be told, is not surprising, if we think about it.
The progress made by MFDs in recent years (networking, interoperability, etc.) is so impressive, that I'd be at a loss in trying to figure what else to ask them...
There's only one feature which afaik nobody ever offered, though it should't be so difficult to program it, and it's the possibility to automatically trace a route from A to B which automatically calculates how to get round any obstacles (land, shallow waters, other restrictions) in between. In some areas like the Croatian archipelago, that would be very convenient imho.
I suppose that must have something to see with potential legal claims from people going aground and pretending it was the plotter + a/p fault...
And that has nothing to see with using a glass system or a MDF, anyway.

 

[jfm]

I'll have to look for my coat after saying this, but I have a funny feeling that the reason why you didn't succeed is that none of the glass bridge producers will ever tell you that the real answer to your question is "nothing".
Which, truth be told, is not surprising, if we think about it.
The progress made by MFDs in recent years (networking, interoperability, etc.) is so impressive, that I'd be at a loss in trying to figure what else to ask them...
There's only one feature which afaik nobody ever offered, though it should't be so difficult to program it, and it's the possibility to automatically trace a route from A to B which automatically calculates how to get round any obstacles (land, shallow waters, other restrictions) in between. In some areas like the Croatian archipelago, that would be very convenient imho.
I suppose that must have something to see with potential legal claims from people going aground and pretending it was the plotter + a/p fault...
And that has nothing to see with using a glass system or a MDF, anyway.

I think you're right MapisM. I have tried hard but can't find the magic thing that black box+glass bridge does that networked modern MFDs don't. Actually at night I have my n2k network powered up and all screens powered off, except the 8 inch screen in master cabin by my bed. From here I can run the radar and see all data, and have anchor+wind alarms, with only a fraction of the 24v drain of a whole system running. With glass bridge I'd need to run the main cimputer, so in this (small) regard MFDs are slightly better. Not that that is a big deal

But overall the functions of the two systems seem pretty much the same to me, but AOTBE I feel more confident with a stack of MFDs becuase that gives me big hardware redundancy over a single black box. I know you can have 2 x black boxes, as Hurricane has

But in answer to your question, Garmin does on 7000 and 8000 series with G2 vision chart chips. You enter "how close to land" as a user setting (annoyingly it doesn't have a nice big 2 mile setting; the choices range from rubbing your chine on the rocks to almost rubbing your chine on the rocks) and then I could put the cursor on Dubrovnik as I sit in antibes and choose "guide to" and Mr Garmin will plot a 20 leg course thru straits of Bonifacio, around the foot of Italy, and up to dubrovnik. The databoxes will then show the length of the route. They need to tweak the software to keep the waypoint at each headland further off the coast but that will happen and even without that fix the system still gives you the mileage.

 

[Groot T]

I'll have to look for my coat after saying this, but I have a funny feeling that the reason why you didn't succeed is that none of the glass bridge producers will ever tell you that the real answer to your question is "nothing"..

Feature wise, there is little to no difference. Though I believe it is easier to get the multi-touch facility (same as your iPhone) onto glass.
Looks wise, substantial.

However, the manufacturer has to make sure your new shiny surface isn't rendered useless in sunlight / reflections, and 'the back-light is bright' simply won't cut it. Much like saying 'the stereo in the car is loud, so the road noise won't be an issue'...

 

[jfm]

Feature wise, there is little to no difference.

OK - that answers the main question we've been asking. The "spilt milk" question

Though I believe it is easier to get the multi-touch facility (same as your iPhone) onto glass.

Are we at complete crossed purposes Toby? It looks like you are explaining here the benefit of glass as a material. When Mapism and i have been asking about the benefits of glass bridges, our question has nothing to do with glass as a material. "Glass bridge" is merely shorthand for a system architecture where you have a black box computer and separate screen dispays. As distinct from networked MFD where you have a separate computer behind each screen

Looks wise, substantial.

Not with new Garmin 8000. Whether you have black box or MFD, you have the flush glass look. Now in this new Garmin world (and Furuno TZ world) glass bridge has to justify itself on functinality, not just looks. Hence these questions

However, the manufacturer has to make sure your new shiny surface isn't rendered useless in sunlight / reflections, and 'the back-light is bright' simply won't cut it. Much like saying 'the stereo in the car is loud, so the road noise won't be an issue'...

Are you actually saying, unequivocally Toby, that Hatteland sunlight viewability is better than Garmin/Raymarine/Furuno?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

There's only one feature which afaik nobody ever offered, though it should't be so difficult to program it, and it's the possibility to automatically trace a route from A to B which automatically calculates how to get round any obstacles (land, shallow waters, other restrictions) in between. In some areas like the Croatian archipelago, that would be very convenient imho.

I've often wondered why plotters cannot do that because, effectively, car satnavs work that way in that they only navigate along safe fairways ie roads. I believe some plotters will warn you if plot a route that goes into shallow water or over land but none will actually plot a safe route for you. I can only presume that this is because the plotter manufacturers are not sufficiently confident in the accuracy of their cartography and are afraid of legal action if their equipment suggests a route which results in a grounding. Given that we all have seen how poor plotter cartography can be, this is understandable

 

[jfm]

I've often wondered why plotters cannot do that because, effectively, car satnavs work that way in that they only navigate along safe fairways ie roads. I believe some plotters will warn you if plot a route that goes into shallow water or over land but none will actually plot a safe route for you. I can only presume that this is because the plotter manufacturers are not sufficiently confident in the accuracy of their cartography and are afraid of legal action if their equipment suggests a route which results in a grounding. Given that we all have seen how poor plotter cartography can be, this is understandable

Yup CMap had the warning of a bad route set up by user at least 10 years ago, in CM93

But Garmin do build a route for you, based on boat's draft, bridge height and user-selected "how hard shall we rub our chines at headlands". If the route is more than a few legs there is an intermediate lawyer's screen with a disclaimer and eleect "I agree" to continue. It's a nice function on Garmin plotters imho, but mostly for distance measuring when I want to know "how far to location X?" when it isn't a straight line

 

[vas]

But in answer to your question, Garmin does on 7000 and 8000 series with G2 vision chart chips. You enter "how close to land" as a user setting (annoyingly it doesn't have a nice big 2 mile setting; the choices range from rubbing your chine on the rocks to almost rubbing your chine on the rocks) and then I could put the cursor on Dubrovnik as I sit in antibes and choose "guide to" and Mr Garmin will plot a 20 leg course thru straits of Bonifacio, around the foot of Italy, and up to dubrovnik. The databoxes will then show the length of the route. They need to tweak the software to keep the waypoint at each headland further off the coast but that will happen and even without that fix the system still gives you the mileage.

JFM and MM,

unless I'm horribly wrong, even the 4&5inch Garmins do have this feature when used with the G2 whatever maps. Considering that I'm often annoyed with the selection of routes made by car gpss, I doubt I'd be happy to use it!

cheers

V.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

But Garmin do build a route for you, based on boat's draft, bridge height and user-selected "how hard shall we rub our chines at headlands". If the route is more than a few legs there is an intermediate lawyer's screen with a disclaimer and eleect "I agree" to continue. It's a nice function on Garmin plotters imho, but mostly for distance measuring when I want to know "how far to location X?" when it isn't a straight line

I didn't know that. Another pluspoint for Garmin

 

[MapisM]

It's a nice function on Garmin plotters imho

Yup, +1.
I wasn't aware that someone eventually did the bit of software which I've been saying that should be done for at least a couple of decades.
Shame about not accepting a decent distance from the coastline, isn't it possible to set a min depth instead?
In most cases, that would be an acceptable substitute for land distance.

Anyway, I see what you mean re. being it more useful for calculating the total distance of a long passage, but wait till you will cruise the Croatian coast.
In the almost 10 years I spent around there, I would have used that feature almost on a daily basis.
In fact, a 15+ waypoints route is not unusual at all, even for a relatively short hop between the islands.
And in some cases, it's not at all obvious, just looking at the map, which is the shorter way to go round one (or more) island/s, to reach another place behind it/them.
I take it that the Garmin feature you're talking about can also find the shorter route.

Then again, I know someone could argue that route planning is part of the fun, sometimes the choice also depends on weather and/or beauty of the coastline, etc.
But wherever in the cruising area there's a huge number of small islands, with countless possible routes between them, this feature it's a tad above the "nice to have" level, imho.
Though nowhere near the "essential" level, of course.
Otoh, neither MFD nor glass bridge as a whole are so essential, coming to think about it...