Boat in build pics (2013 Fairline Squadron 78)

[vas]

Just curious, and this really has nothing to do with this thread, but do you know if any boats are built on a male rather than a female mould? Might be impossible but just wondered.

and the gelcoat ends up on the inside of the hull???
or am I missing something?
V.

 

[benjenbav]

and the gelcoat ends up on the inside of the hull???
or am I missing something?
V.

I would have thought it was possible to lay up grp on a male mould and hand-finish the surface. Dunno, tho'. Hence the question.

 

[Elessar]

Nope, it's a one piece mould

The bits that would lock it in - window recess blocks, b/t tunnel formers, some flanges, are not integral to the mould. They are bolted onto the surface of the mould, and "sealed" on using a fillet of white plasticene (some plasticene debris can be seen around the window rectangles in the pic). When lay up is finished these blocks are all just unbolted from the outside of the mould. Then hull is lifted out by crane, and the window recess blocks etc come out too, and are then just prised out of the hull. Easy peasy. The hull probably releases quite easily given that it's #92 from the same mould so the mould has seen a lot of polish/wax over the years

Hope you're not too shocked that they split a spray rail/lift strip with the b/t tunnel!

Fascinating. So you can have a window or whatever wherever you like quite easily. Good info.

I get the plasticine thing. To custom build a squarish something you just glue gun together cheap b+Q conti board and plasticine the corners. Cheap one off mould job done.

And #92. Flip.

 

[jfm]

Just curious, and this really has nothing to do with this thread, but do you know if any boats are built on a male rather than a female mould? Might be impossible but just wondered.

Yes, but rarely. Big repairs are done from the outside in of course, and it is perfectly possibly to apply gelcoat last. Boats have been built in wood then sheathed in grp, then hand faired and sprayed in gelcoat, which amounts to the same thing sort of

Drifiting slightly, for the superyachts built one-off in composite these days a CNC machine cuts mdf frames (using that word in the nautical sense) and they all get fastened together in a massive jigsaw, like Yoeri's boat x 1000, then the thing is lined in sheets of mdf. Then a paint/releaser is sprayed on the mould surface of the mdf and weyhey you have a fragile finished mould for one-use only. The boat is made, then the mdf is smashed off and chucked away. Then gelcoat is sprayed where the finish is a bit crappy and the thing is hand faired quite a lot, so it ends up looking perfect. All fine, for a one-off

 

[jfm]

Fascinating. So you can have a window or whatever wherever you like quite easily. Good info.

I get the plasticine thing. To custom build a squarish something you just glue gun together cheap b+Q conti board and plasticine the corners. Cheap one off mould job done.

And #92. Flip.

Yep. These days the windows are all moveable blocks because different cabin options or different evolutions of the boat mean different windows, and you don't wanna have to have a whole new mould. Suits me of course cos i could get extra windows for little cost - much bang for your buck when you massively increase light in a cabins plus better view out. And it suits my anti-depreciation strategy to have nice must-have enhancements that differentiate me from all the other samey samey sq78s on the market, and aren't easily retrofittable. Extra fuel, stabilsers, extra windows, custom long passerelle all fit in this category, but other sq78 customers have copied some of those so i need to keep inventing new ones, like extra windows. And er white caulking

BTW, Fairline mould shop guys apply the plasticene fillets using a box of tools that are sort of screwdrivers but with spheres on the end, in sort of 2, 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10mm diameters. They squish the pasticene into the 90 deg female corner then draw the "sphere-screwdriver" along the fillet to create a perfect radius in one pass - they are very skilled at it of course. They're nice team and willing to help - if the mould shop team were awkward in a yachtbuilder it would reduce the ability to have these nice customisations, like stabs, extra windows, special passerelles. I'm fortunate that Fairline's moulding team are skilled and willing to make changes to the mould (thanks Dan+ team if you're reading this!). Remember also that they have to clean up and change it all back for the next boat (sorry guys!)

 

[benjenbav]

Drifiting slightly, for the superyachts built one-off in composite these days a CNC machine cuts mdf frames (using that word in the nautical sense) and they all get fastened together in a massive jigsaw, like Yoeri's boat x 1000, then the thing is lined in sheets of mdf. Then a paint/releaser is sprayed on the mould surface of the mdf and weyhey you have a fragile finished mould for one-use only. The boat is made, then the mdf is smashed off and chucked away. Then gelcoat is sprayed where the finish is a bit crappy and the thing is hand faired quite a lot, so it ends up looking perfect. All fine, for a one-off

All kind of sounds like going round the Aston Martin factory ten years or more ago and being shown a bloke in a brown coat banging things with a mallet and thinking a robot could do it better.

Or, as you once said, following the rebuild of my rudder stocks: "The bolts should never be loaded in shear, only in tension. But to get that effect you have to tighten the bolts and elastically deform the GRP. I bet the salty old seadogs at Aquastar just didn't do that, and that the assembly relied on salty old seadog shipwrights doing it by feel, not with a calculated torque/torque wrench. Then the bolts got loaded in shear, hence the cracking, then the assembly started to move against the GRP."

 

[DanT]

Yep. These days the windows are all moveable blocks because different cabin options or different evolutions of the boat mean different windows, and you don't wanna have to have a whole new mould. Suits me of course cos i could get extra windows for little cost - much bang for your buck when you massively increase light in a cabins plus better view out. And it suits my anti-depreciation strategy to have nice must-have enhancements that differentiate me from all the other samey samey sq78s on the market, and aren't easily retrofittable. Extra fuel, stabilsers, extra windows, custom long passerelle all fit in this category, but other sq78 customers have copied some of those so i need to keep inventing new ones, like extra windows. And er white caulking

BTW, Fairline mould shop guys apply the plasticene fillets using a box of tools that are sort of screwdrivers but with spheres on the end, in sort of 2, 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10mm diameters. They squish the pasticene into the 90 deg female corner then draw the "sphere-screwdriver" along the fillet to create a perfect radius in one pass - they are very skilled at it of course. They're nice team and willing to help - if the mould shop team were awkward in a yachtbuilder it would reduce the ability to have these nice customisations, like stabs, extra windows, special passerelles. I'm fortunate that Fairline's moulding team are skilled and willing to make changes to the mould (thanks Dan+ team if you're reading this!). Remember also that they have to clean up and change it all back for the next boat (sorry guys!)

Of course we are reading this John, how could we not! We are grateful that our skills and efforts are recognised and appreciated, so thank you. Your boat is a considerable challenge to the whole team, particularly as we are trying to maintain a steady build rate on the other 5 Squadron 78's within the factory too, but it is progressing nicely and we are looking forward to seeing the finished article almost as much as you are.
Regards from the Fairline Squadron 78 production team.
Dan

 

[DTIM]

I would have thought it was possible to lay up grp on a male mould and hand-finish the surface. Dunno, tho'. Hence the question.

Lots of race yachts (one offs) were and are made on male moulds, then faired and sprayed, stringers, bulkheads etc then added when the hull is turned.

 

[P4Paul]

Of course we are reading this John, how could we not! We are grateful that our skills and efforts are recognised and appreciated, so thank you. Your boat is a considerable challenge to the whole team, particularly as we are trying to maintain a steady build rate on the other 5 Squadron 78's within the factory too, but it is progressing nicely and we are looking forward to seeing the finished article almost as much as you are.
Regards from the Fairline Squadron 78 production team.
Dan

Having built up, run and sold a composite business, I always like to look at the hidden bits because it highlights how smart and how much care the team have for the job.

I was impressed by Match1 and continue to be on Match2. Great job Dan (and team), I am sure that Fairline are as proud of you as you seem to be of your work.

 

[Hurricane]

Yep. These days the windows are all moveable blocks because different cabin options or different evolutions of the boat mean different windows, and you don't wanna have to have a whole new mould. Suits me of course cos i could get extra windows for little cost - much bang for your buck when you massively increase light in a cabins plus better view out. And it suits my anti-depreciation strategy to have nice must-have enhancements that differentiate me from all the other samey samey sq78s on the market, and aren't easily retrofittable. Extra fuel, stabilsers, extra windows, custom long passerelle all fit in this category, but other sq78 customers have copied some of those so i need to keep inventing new ones, like extra windows. And er white caulking

BTW, Fairline mould shop guys apply the plasticene fillets using a box of tools that are sort of screwdrivers but with spheres on the end, in sort of 2, 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10mm diameters. They squish the pasticene into the 90 deg female corner then draw the "sphere-screwdriver" along the fillet to create a perfect radius in one pass - they are very skilled at it of course. They're nice team and willing to help - if the mould shop team were awkward in a yachtbuilder it would reduce the ability to have these nice customisations, like stabs, extra windows, special passerelles. I'm fortunate that Fairline's moulding team are skilled and willing to make changes to the mould (thanks Dan+ team if you're reading this!). Remember also that they have to clean up and change it all back for the next boat (sorry guys!)

Ahh - I've always wondered how it was done.
Just looked back at my pics from the Princess factory.
It all makes sense now
Here's a pic I took in Plymouth.

I think the loose window moulds that have just been removed from the previous hull are resting on the port side - the starboard ones seem to be ready for the next hull.

Assuming I'm right.

I think this was the hull that had just been removed.

All from memory though.

 

[jfm]

Yup that all makes sense mike. The loose things on the port side are window blocks waiting to be fitted to the mould ready for the next boat. That mould is clearly in the early stages of preparation, as it needs the b/thruster tube fitting and maybe something at the engine exhaust ports

you can also see how they've dealt with the topsides of the hull, right aft. The finished hull shows hull sides with a warap around angled flange joint that will mate to the deck+transom moulding, just as you'd expect. But this would mechanically lock the hull in the mould, making it unreleasable. So the mould tool has removeable panels here, missing in the picture.

 

[Robg71]

Jfm
I may have missed it from earlier, but dont think so, but stunning as it is undoubtably going to be, why such a wholly customised off the shelf boat, as opposed a fully customised ali built boat, such as the vdv shown on another thread.
Im sure lots of designs you had looked at and turned downed.
Just curios thats all
Regards
Rob

 

[jfm]

Hi Rob
There's kind of a natural human attraction to thinking metal is better than plastic. Sure if you want a RTW trawler yacht with uber collision resistance etc you might choose steel, but if I asked you to set out the benefits of a sq78 in GRP compared with a hypothetical Sq78 in ali, what would you say? There would be a few advantages, but also disadvantages. I happen to think that in the 80 foot space, GRP makes more sense and so I'd choose the GRP sq78 over the (hypothetical) ali one

Now in VdV-ville, they want to be able to offer more customisation choices. Same basic boat but you can have shafts or pods. And you can completely rework the cabins layout and bulkheads. And i think the boat in Yoeri's thread has a pretty much one-off superstructure design too. Sheesh. If you want all that customisation, not in steel, then ali is a great choice and makes perfect sense. Hence VdV and others. But if you don't want that, a strong case can be made that plastic is better than ali

I actually don't want that much customisation Rob. Details aside, there is nothing about the cabin layout for example that I would change on Sq78 - it has 4 boxes with doors and windows, what's not to like . And I want two massive caterpillars or MTUs, on shafts, nothing else, and not volvo pod jobs, so on that score I don't need customisation becuase all the PrinFairSeekerFerretti mainstream 80-footers already offer me the big Cats/MTUs (and MANs). No doubt someone can make a zzzz technical case why three or 4 volvo pods have advantages, and that's all fine, but I don't agree and I love the big 30 odd litre monsters from Cat and MTU

Then you have boat economics. I have a decent wedge of cash tied up in boats but try as best i can to run a strategy of getting as much as poss back on re-sale. My Sq58 sold for what is still the highest ever price for a used Sq58, and more than I paid for it new, and Match1 wasn't bad either. Now, I think (though i don't know) the secret to this is getting the boat and spec right. Two aspects to this, very much imho:

1. You have to avoid "Mangusta syndrome". Mangustas are lovely, but when you buy one they say you can have any veneer and any inlay from any tree in the world, and any door handles and any bathroom stuff , all at no extra cost. So the buyers (with exceptions - some of the boats are lovely) ask what is the most expensive veneer in the world and the answer is some swirly grained tree no-one has heard of and gloss lacquer, so the whole boat ends up looks like a 1970s stereogram turned inside out with Rolex logos on the taps, ffs. No-one wants this stuff in the used market, and the used prices reveal draw dropping depreciation. And the ones that are nicely specced then get infected pricewise by the horrible boats. So my point is you have to be very careful about residual values on custom boats

2. Hence I think you do better with a production boat. The bandwidth of used prices is small, just like when selling used Ford Mondeos. Then if you can get some must-have customisations that make the boat stand out but don't create Mangusta-syndrome, like in my case stabs, extra fuel, and extra windows etc, you can get a price premium compared with others on resale. It's important that these things are not easily retrofittable too. You sort of have the only Mondeo with sunroof and power steering, if you get my drift, and you see low depreciation. The basic Mondeo market gives a sort of floor to the price, and the sunroof and power steering give you a good chance of a premium

That's my grand strategy and I have no idea if it works or will continue to work

Then apart from all that grand strategy you have to enjoy this whole build thing. I know the Fairline guys well and we can agree things easily because we have history and all keep to our word and are nice to each other. And in the final analysis our deal is under English law not Dutch, and I'm pretty confident about where I stand in a dispute. All that is quite a big deal and it would take something major (more major than an ali hull) to make me take the risk of making a new relationship with a new builder in NL.

But all that is my personal view. Ali custom boats can be lovely things and the VdV is truly lovely stuff, apart from the pods for which I don't have any must-buy-them feelings. But it's not the ali per se that is the big deal about VdV; it's everything else lovely about them. When i signed up for the Sq78s my thought processes were not "Lovely boat, very nice build team, reliable firm, fair price, good after sales, has all the accom I want, can manage depreciation using my er strategy, but dammit the sodding hull is GRP not ali". I'm totally happy with the GRP and can argue that in view of my not wanting to move bulkheads or fit pods it is a better material for this purpose than ali

 

[Robg71]

Cheers Jim
It wasnt a question of ali, over grp. More over the thought process in to how you went back to a boat you already had one of.
That has certainly answered my question though. I have seen some large rather structures floated out of docks, but always more industrial, but also being part of design and commissioning teams does fill with a sense of pride, and the thought process that we went through with building something that, ultimately would never be ours, but we lived on, and used and was /is a second home.
I actually had the impression you had done more structural changes than you had, hence my point of ali over moulded, hence the ease of doing one off fabrications. but your logic certainly makes perfect sense.
I would love to see her when finished, as its certainly going to be a beauty.
Regards
Rob

 

[benjenbav]

Had to laugh reading "Mangusta Syndrome". It's a bit like when Katy Price was on TopGear talking about buying an Aston Martin:

Clarkson: They'll match any colour you want.

Jordan: You shouldn't have told me that. Would they do coral pink, like this outfit?

Clarkson: Oh yes, and when you sell it, it'll be worth four, maybe five pounds.

 

[rafiki_]

Had to laugh reading "Mangusta Syndrome". It's a bit like when Katy Price was on TopGear talking about buying an Aston Martin:

Clarkson: They'll match any colour you want.

Jordan: You shouldn't have told me that. Would they do coral pink, like this outfit?

Clarkson: Oh yes, and when you sell it, it'll be worth four, maybe five pounds.

A question of taste?

 

[petem]

Hi Rob
There's kind of a natural human attraction to thinking metal is better than plastic. Sure if you want a RTW trawler yacht with uber collision resistance etc you might choose steel, but if I asked you to set out the benefits of a sq78 in GRP compared with a hypothetical Sq78 in ali, what would you say? There would be a few advantages, but also disadvantages. I happen to think that in the 80 foot space, GRP makes more sense and so I'd choose the GRP sq78 over the (hypothetical) ali one

Now in VdV-ville, they want to be able to offer more customisation choices. Same basic boat but you can have shafts or pods. And you can completely rework the cabins layout and bulkheads. And i think the boat in Yoeri's thread has a pretty much one-off superstructure design too. Sheesh. If you want all that customisation, not in steel, then ali is a great choice and makes perfect sense. Hence VdV and others. But if you don't want that, a strong case can be made that plastic is better than ali

I actually don't want that much customisation Rob. Details aside, there is nothing about the cabin layout for example that I would change on Sq78 - it has 4 boxes with doors and windows, what's not to like . And I want two massive caterpillars or MTUs, on shafts, nothing else, and not volvo pod jobs, so on that score I don't need customisation becuase all the PrinFairSeekerFerretti mainstream 80-footers already offer me the big Cats/MTUs (and MANs). No doubt someone can make a zzzz technical case why three or 4 volvo pods have advantages, and that's all fine, but I don't agree and I love the big 30 odd litre monsters from Cat and MTU

Then you have boat economics. I have a decent wedge of cash tied up in boats but try as best i can to run a strategy of getting as much as poss back on re-sale. My Sq58 sold for what is still the highest ever price for a used Sq58, and more than I paid for it new, and Match1 wasn't bad either. Now, I think (though i don't know) the secret to this is getting the boat and spec right. TWwo aspects to this, very much imho:

1. You have to avoid "Mangusta syndrome". Mangustas are lovely, but when you buy one they say you can have any veneer and any inlay from any tree in the world, and any door handles and any bathroom stuff , all at no extra cost. So the buyers (with exceptions - some of the boats are lovely) ask what is the most expensive veneer in the world and the answer is some swirly grained tree no-one has heard of and gloss lacquer, so the whole boat ends up looks like a 1970s stereogram turned inside out with Rolex logos on the taps, ffs. No-one wants this stuff in the used market, and the used prices reveal draw dropping depreciation. And the ones that are nicely specced then get infected pricewise by the horrible boats. So my point is you have to be very careful about residual values on custom boats

2. Hence I think you do better with a production boat. The bandwidth of used prices is small, just like when selling used Ford Mondeos. Then if you can get some must-have customisations that make the boat stand out but don't create Mangusta-syndrome, like in my case stabs, extra fuel, and extra windows etc, you can get a price premium compared with others on resale. It's important that these things are not easily retrofittable too. You sort of have the only Mondeo with sunroof and power steering, if you get my drift, and you see low depreciation. The basic Mondeo market gives a sort of floor to the price, and the sunroof and power steering give you a good chance of a premium

That's my grand strategy and I have no idea if it works or will continue to work

Then apart from all that grand strategy you have to enjoy this whole build thing. I know the Fairline guys well and we can agree things easily because we have history and all keep to our word and are nice to each other. And in the final analysis our deal is under English law not Dutch, and I'm pretty confident about where I stand in a dispute. All that is quite a big deal and it would take something major (more major than an ali hull) to make me take the risk of making a new relationship with a new builder in NL.

But all that is my personal view. Ali custom boats can be lovely things and the VdV is truly lovely stuff, apart from the pods for which I don't have any must-buy-them feelings. But it's not the ali per se that is the big deal about VdV; it's everything else lovely about them. When i signed up for the Sq78s my thought processes were not "Lovely boat, very nice build team, reliable firm, fair price, good after sales, has all the accom I want, can manage depreciation using my er strategy, but dammit the sodding hull is GRP not ali". I'm totally happy with the GRP and can argue that in view of my not wanting to move bulkheads or fit pods it is a better material for this purpose than ali

That's a great answer!

 

[MRC]

^^^^^^

I enjoyed that reply.

 

[MapisM]

If you want all that customisation, not in steel, then ali is a great choice and makes perfect sense.

Very nice summary J, I fully agree with all that.
I would just add, re. your point above, that if we are talking (as we are) of planing boats, steel actually is not even an option, for weight reasons.
Therefore, in practice alu is rather the only, than "just" a great choice.
But in the 80' bracket, I also would be more that happy with the sort of customization you're getting for M2...!

 

[AdeOlly]

Excellent summary JFM, love the 'mangusta syndrome' analogy. (Sounds like it could be title of a thriller!). I think that your approach to making Match 2 the most desirable SQ78 through hard to retrofit and desirable options is a good one. Of course the white caulking shouldn't be to much of problem on the second hand market as it can be changed to black fairly easily Only kidding; It'll probably look fab and us doubters will have to eat humble pie.