boat features that give good pointing

[Richard D]

Hi I am looking for a boat that is good for cruising and is relatively fast and is good at pointing in the 30 -34 foot range. What are the features and specdifications of a boat that you can look at and judge that it SHOULD be good at pointing.

Regards Richard

 

[Twister_Ken]

Hi I am looking for a boat that is good for cruising and is relatively fast and is good at pointing in the 30 -34 foot range. What are the features and specdifications of a boat that you can look at and judge that it SHOULD be good at pointing.

Regards Richard

You mean a boat like mine!

Narrow headsail sheeting angle (and I use a barbour hauler to make it narrower). A deep, hydrodynamic keel. Well-cut sails. A narrow angle back from the bows.

 

[William_H]

Pointing

Yes I would agree the keel is perhaps the most critical part but you must have a good high aspect ratio jib.
(not one of those roll up suits all winds jib but a real range of well cut jibs) and a high aspect ratio fractional rig.
Unfortunately the best keel is also the deepest draft. good luck olewill

 

[john_morris_uk]

Compare what you are looking at with a Sigma 33 (for the older boats) or a Danish X boat (for a more modern boat) or one of the other known to be effective cruiser racers in that sort of length!

Sheeting angles of the headsail is one factor that is obvious and easy to see. Oddly enough the underwater shape is not quite as big an influence as you might think, so long as its got some sort of decent keel. The underwater shape affect the motion and its ability to track rather more. Big fat backsided boats tend to broach more easily, and some of the popular current models will round up uncotrollably even when hard on the wind. I rather like sailing a boat that is more foregiving and when in crusing mode doesn't demand you dump the main as you get pressed in the gusts, but I digress.

I don't think there's any difference in pointing ability between masthead and fractional rigs. The reason that fractional is the preferred rig for most racers is the ability to change the shape of the main, but I don't think that it affects their basic pointing ability in the right conditions. I suppose that you might argue it helps you to keep pointing as the wind goes up and down...?

 

[ianat182]

Long-keeled beauties like the Halmatics and Vancouvers are great windward yachts but less predictable in astern and close manoeuring situations; the Rival yachts also good upwind in their 34 and 38' options. Excellent at holding a course and generally sea kindly and not too wet in a chop. I've sailed the Hallberg 35 also another excellent performer.

The Lottery hasn't favoured me with the funds to achieve ownership of them, maybe tonight!!

ianat182

 

[Boathook]

Decent cut sails are a great help I have found !

 

[john_morris_uk]

I have just realised that the OP asked about speed as well as pointing ability. In that case ignore those who talk about long keeled yachts and some of my remarks about the underwater section not mattering - if long keels were fast then all the racin boats would have them.

Deep fin keels with good entry and exits for the water, combined with good sheeting angles and well cut sails.

If you look at a modern racing boat you will see that the shrouds are often well inboard. This is to allow the sheeting angle of the foresail to be narrow. Couple this with good sails and a good hull will give you fast upwind sailing.

On our SCOD when racing and on the upwind legs we used to sheet the genoa from INSIDE the shrouds. It meant some nifty work from the foredeck when going onto a reach as we had spare 'reaching' sheets to hook on when reaching. We did win some silverware though...

 

[flaming]

If you look at a modern racing boat you will see that the shrouds are often well inboard. This is to allow the sheeting angle of the foresail to be narrow.

No longer....

Almost all new boats now have full width shrouds and non overlapping jibs. Which will then be barberhauled as per TK above. Wider shroud base allows a lighter mast section, which means you can get a taller mast for the same weight, and add the lost area to the mainsail. Which is a much more efficient way of doing it.

The interesting thing about pointing is that it can vary hugely between boats in a one design fleet - and between helmsmen in the same boat!

So setup - mast rake, forestay tension, sail trim etc all have a massive impact - as does helming technique.

But to look at boats on the hard it's deep keel, tall rig, fine entry.

 

[doug748]

Coo, we are all in agreement.

A good deep keel of lead, or of very deep cast iron, or deep with a lump on the bottom is the starting point.

I note that you are interested in a boat that is: "good for cruising and is relatively fast" So a more traditional type, or a newer light displacement model would suit. Some older boats are slow by any standards, others, in cruising terms, are beyond reproach.
Some newer, lightweight, boats have dreadful windage, gripe like hell, and will pound your teeth out, others sail like witches and if you wanted ultimate racing speed would be the ones to go for.
In the newer boat, avoid twin aft cabins on a short waterline, over wide sterns, stumpy iron keels and huge headroom within.

In practice the general choice is governed by budget under 30k and you are in the former camp, over 40k and you can take in newer boats, if you have a mind to.

I have always thought that windward performance is very important in a boat sailed for pleasure. Starting the engine spoils my day, I do it a little as possible.

 

[mattnj]

...
So setup - mast rake, forestay tension, sail trim etc all have a massive impact - as does helming technique. ....

Could you just quickly remind us what we should be doing/looking to do in these areas please....

 

[r_h]

I have always thought that windward performance is very important in a boat sailed for pleasure.

Agreed - and if you have a boat that points really well there are plently of times you'll be cracked off the wind on a close reach when others are struggling in full upwind mode.

 

[flaming]

Could you just quickly remind us what we should be doing/looking to do in these areas please....

The simple answer there is "it depends..." Whole books have been written on this subject, however.... In the broadest possible way, rake the mast back, and tension the forestay to improve pointing. But overdo this and you'll really suffer in light winds. With a decent breeze sheeting in hard is ok, but overdo it in either light or heavy winds and you'll struggle.

Helming wise there is one simple mantra. Speed is height. You must be travelling fast before you sheet in and come up hard on the wind. This gets good flow over your keel and rudder, providing lift, which you can then use to turn into height. If you simply fall out of a tack straight onto your close hauled course, and wind the sails in you'll never accelerate properly, and you'll go sideways.

 

[bignick]

Hi I am looking for a boat that is good for cruising and is relatively fast and is good at pointing in the 30 -34 foot range. What are the features and specdifications of a boat that you can look at and judge that it SHOULD be good at pointing.

Regards Richard

As a completely different tack - you could do what I did and have a look at what boats are competitive in the sizes you're looking at. Anybody doing remotely well on the racecourse must have at least some upwind ability.

It sounds like you're following the same thought process that I went through - and I ended up with an Elan 295. Though if I ever win some money I would be very keen on that Arcona, or a bigger Elan, or Dehler, or X-Yacht, or a Finngulf, Sweden Yachts etc etc.... Nice to dream sometimes....

ps. Demon upwind in 10kts could be very different to a demon upwind in 25kts true....

 

[Richard D]

great answers but raises more questions

Yes John, was out in an Etap 28 and a Jeannaux 34 sunrise in the last 2 weeks and both were ( not sure of the correct nautical expression) very squirmy and vered off course when the breeze was up, is this because they are beemy boats with not much draft. If a good depth keel is one of the most important fatcors why dont a lot more boats have a keel of 6 feet or more as I cant believe that another foot or so should stop you going where you want to, if you want shallow draft get a bilge keeler. Looking through all the boats in the 30 to 37 foot range only about 2% have a keel above 2 meters, surley the sailing ability of a deep keel must outwiegh the few places off limits.
That brings another question, the keel stops the boat leaning over so does a 10 foot long 3 feet deep keel give as much resistance as a 5 foot 6 feet deep one and what is the disadvantage of having as long a keel as possible, only reason I can can postulate is that it may take longer to go on another tack.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Yes John, was out in an Etap 28 and a Jeannaux 34 sunrise in the last 2 weeks and both were ( not sure of the correct nautical expression) very squirmy and vered off course when the breeze was up, is this because they are beemy boats with not much draft. If a good depth keel is one of the most important fatcors why dont a lot more boats have a keel of 6 feet or more as I cant believe that another foot or so should stop you going where you want to, if you want shallow draft get a bilge keeler. Looking through all the boats in the 30 to 37 foot range only about 2% have a keel above 2 meters, surley the sailing ability of a deep keel must outwiegh the few places off limits.
That brings another question, the keel stops the boat leaning over so does a 10 foot long 3 feet deep keel give as much resistance as a 5 foot 6 feet deep one and what is the disadvantage of having as long a keel as possible, only reason I can can postulate is that it may take longer to go on another tack.

If your question was directed at me then my answer is that I am not the last word on underwater dynamics.

However my understanding is that long keels have lots of wetted area (which is slow) and don't generate the lift of a properly designed fin keel. In their favour is that the motion of the yacht is often very pleasant and they track very well, but they are NOT as fast as a properly designed deep fin keel. Furthermore a well designed fin keeled boat can also track well and has many advantages without the disadvantages of the long keel. Its a personal choice though, and both have their places and followers.

The fin keel of a racing yacht does two things. It provides a place to stick a lump of lead to give righting moment, and it is also shaped to provide lift when sailing to windward. The chord/shape of the keel is critical, and the extreme examples are very long and very carefully profiled with a bulb nose. The extreme offshore racing boats have a choice of dagger boards to lower into the water so that not only can the keel be canted to provide maximum righting moment, but the hydrodynamic shape of the dagger board that you lower can be chosen to maximise your lift on the particular tack you are on.

Finally, if you have a deep fin, it means you can design the canoe body and enty and exits of the hull free from the contraints of any long keel you stick on it.

You are correct when you point out that some modern designs with twin aft cabins (or even one large aft cabin) sail like pigs. Lots of people defend their boats (why not - they are our pride and joy) but I will never suggest that our Westerly Sealord will sail up wind like a X-Yacht. However she does sail reasonably well up wind and is very well behaved. When the wind blows, she just leans over and goes faster, is very predictable and always feels very safe.

I remember taking a friend sailing who was a very experienced offshore sailor, but who had only sailed modern fin keeled fat backsided boats. We were in our SCOD at the time (I know its long keel, but our Westerly behaves in a similar way so that is irrelevant) There was a huge gust and the boat heeled, stayed on course and just got a bit faster. I will never forget the look of amazement on his face. On all the boats he had sailed on up to then, and in the gust we had just experienced, you would have been dumping the main and picking yourself back up off your feet and trying to get the boat back upright and sailing again.

To the OP, reasonable sailing performance makes all the difference to your cruising pleasure, but there's more to sailing than just going fast upwind.

 

[flaming]

If your question was directed at me then my answer is that I am not the last word on underwater dynamics.

However my understanding is that long keels have lots of wetted area (which is slow) and don't generate the lift of a properly designed fin keel. In their favour is that the motion of the yacht is often very pleasant and they track very well, but they are NOT as fast as a properly designed deep fin keel. Furthermore a well designed fin keeled boat can also track well and has many advantages without the disadvantages of the long keel. Its a personal choice though, and both have their places and followers.

The fin keel of a racing yacht does two things. It provides a place to stick a lump of lead to give righting moment, and it is also shaped to provide lift when sailing to windward. The chord/shape of the keel is critical, and the extreme examples are very long and very carefully profiled with a bulb nose. The extreme offshore racing boats have a choice of dagger boards to lower into the water so that not only can the keel be canted to provide maximum righting moment, but the hydrodynamic shape of the dagger board that you lower can be chosen to maximise your lift on the particular tack you are on.

Finally, if you have a deep fin, it means you can design the canoe body and enty and exits of the hull free from the contraints of any long keel you stick on it.

You are correct when you point out that some modern designs with twin aft cabins (or even one large aft cabin) sail like pigs. Lots of people defend their boats (why not - they are our pride and joy) but I will never suggest that our Westerly Sealord will sail up wind like a X-Yacht. However she does sail reasonably well up wind and is very well behaved. When the wind blows, she just leans over and goes faster, is very predictable and always feels very safe.

I remember taking a friend sailing who was a very experienced offshore sailor, but who had only sailed modern fin keeled fat backsided boats. We were in our SCOD at the time (I know its long keel, but our Westerly behaves in a similar way so that is irrelevant) There was a huge gust and the boat heeled, stayed on course and just got a bit faster. I will never forget the look of amazement on his face. On all the boats he had sailed on up to then, and in the gust we had just experienced, you would have been dumping the main and picking yourself back up off your feet and trying to get the boat back upright and sailing again.

To the OP, reasonable sailing performance makes all the difference to your cruising pleasure, but there's more to sailing than just going fast upwind.

Not a lot to disagree with there.

As with all aspects of boat design, keel type is a compromise. If you want the best speed, you have to accept that you need to sail it more actively, and that poor trim will be punished.

However, if you want a boat that will "just heel more" when a gust hits, you have to accept that you're likely to be out there, just heeling more, for longer.

 

[lw395]

One thing I would add is that the best overall way of improving upwind performance is usually a longer boat.
For cruising in any strong winds, I would suggest thinking twice before buying a lightly ballasted ex-racing yacht which needs a lot of fat people sat on the rail to go well. Lightweight is good for performance, but not at the expense of righting moment.
Having said that, I used to have an Impala, which was great in any breeze we wanted to cruise in. But it had had a bit of lead added on the keel, as had most of the class IIRC.

Good controls matter, an ex-racer will usually have winches and gear that work well, although they may have been worked hard. A good traveller is worth having.

 

[Tranona]

Yes John, was out in an Etap 28 and a Jeannaux 34 sunrise in the last 2 weeks and both were ( not sure of the correct nautical expression) very squirmy and vered off course when the breeze was up, is this because they are beemy boats with not much draft. If a good depth keel is one of the most important fatcors why dont a lot more boats have a keel of 6 feet or more as I cant believe that another foot or so should stop you going where you want to, if you want shallow draft get a bilge keeler. Looking through all the boats in the 30 to 37 foot range only about 2% have a keel above 2 meters, surley the sailing ability of a deep keel must outwiegh the few places off limits.
That brings another question, the keel stops the boat leaning over so does a 10 foot long 3 feet deep keel give as much resistance as a 5 foot 6 feet deep one and what is the disadvantage of having as long a keel as possible, only reason I can can postulate is that it may take longer to go on another tack.

There is a lot more to keel choice than just depth. As others have explained a keel is a foil and a means for mounting the ballast. There has been a move recently to deeper keels, partly because ballast ratios have fallen and a deeper keel is a way of making better use of ballast to aid sail carrying ability.

And, yes draft does impact on many peoples' use of their boat. Not all boats are sailed in perpetually deep water. For example the whole of the Atlantic coast of France and much of the UK has a big tidal range and anchorages are often in tidal estuaries or accessed over a sill. Draft greater than 2m can severely restrict the range of operation. In the boat size you are talking about, there is little advantage in exceeding 2m from a performance point of view.

As ever it is a compromise in design terms. I have a shallow draft keel of 1.45m compared with the standard 1.8 on a 37 footer, but the keel is longer and with a large bulb at the bottom so the ballast ratio and AVS stay the same as standard. Where I lose on performance is the less efficient foil which leads to greater leeway. However, in overall cruising terms passage times will be very little different from the deeper keel. My choice was made because I wanted to use the French canals which is difficult with a 1.8m and impossible with 2m. Also my home port is Poole and any greater draft severely limits the area of the harbour I can use.

So not everybody is bent on trying to get maximum sailing performance out of a boat, and as many have said there is far more to extracting performance than just having a deep keel. The trick is to find the boat that has the basic characteristics you think suits your needs and learn how to get the best out of it.

 

[rob2]

I don't think there's a single correct answer to the original question. The modern way to promote speed upwind is a deep fin keel with the weight at the lower end. It works very well, but won't be what a cruising skipper wants as it is labour intensive. Long keelers do generally go beautifully to windward, but their hull form makes them slow downwind with all that drag, so a spinnaker can become a neccessary addition in all but the strongest breezes.

My own boat was chosen as it has the early fin and skeg configuration with some depth to the hull, a fine entry and fairly narrow beam - all good features for the boat to go well in a groove to windward. Although not as slow downwind as a long-keeler, it still requires more sail area down wind than to windward, but is more directionally stable than more modern designs.

Such considerations explain why the Contessa 32 will remain a popular all-weather cruiser for couples with maybe a guest or two...

Rob.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I don't think there's a single correct answer to the original question. The modern way to promote speed upwind is a deep fin keel with the weight at the lower end. It works very well, but won't be what a cruising skipper wants as it is labour intensive. Long keelers do generally go beautifully to windward, but their hull form makes them slow downwind with all that drag, so a spinnaker can become a neccessary addition in all but the strongest breezes.

My own boat was chosen as it has the early fin and skeg configuration with some depth to the hull, a fine entry and fairly narrow beam - all good features for the boat to go well in a groove to windward. Although not as slow downwind as a long-keeler, it still requires more sail area down wind than to windward, but is more directionally stable than more modern designs.

Such considerations explain why the Contessa 32 will remain a popular all-weather cruiser for couples with maybe a guest or two...

Rob.

Hmm - I normally try not to get in a huff - but have you actually read what I put in my posts? To say that there isn't single correct answer and then paraphrase some of what I and others have written is a bit insulting.

The OP actually asks about the characteristics that promote pointing ability and speed, and although I have sailed many a long keeled boat that 'goes well in a groove' the latest design of cruiser racers with deep fins outpoint most any long keeled boat I can think of and go faster at the same time.

I assume that you have a Contessa 32 from what you have written and they are certainly fine sailing boats. However there are plenty of other boats around that point higher and sail faster.

The OP also didn't ask about how labour intensive boats were.

There's always a compromise in sailing and boat design and I suggest that the contributors so far had pointed out the plus's and minus's pretty well.

PS The necessity of using a spinnaker downwind has more to do with the way a sail works and the difference in apparent wind speed with the square factor associated with wind pressure than boat design.