Boat design with regard to number of people on board.

[Chiara’s slave]

I very much doubt that boats (or at least very many of them) are designed to trim correctly with the number of berths times crew in the cockpit.

Nobody in their right mind voluntarily cruises with the same number of adult crew as berths provided in most boats (or at least does so and allows all of them to be out of their berths at the same time!), and as few boats do we'd all be sailing around bows down and hence struggling to steer if they were designed for a cockpit full.

For racing, it's traditional to banish part of the crew to the foredeck, and part to the windward rail. (I've not done enough racing to find out whether that's for boat balancing or to avoid BO problems. )

I suspect your boat, Fred, would be OK with six adults in the cockpit (if a bit tight space-wise), but a little down at the stern.

I am advised that an LM27 (which has between 4 and 8 berths, depending on how you count them) will start backfilling via the cockpit drains if you have 11 adults in the cockpit! Fortunately, for partying purposes (though not for surviving the ultimate storm), mines an earlier non-self-draining cockpit model.

Foredeck crews nurse their hangovers away from hectoring skippers. Rail crew are on punishment duty. Their main job is to catch the spray and keep the skipper dry.

 

[Wansworth]

Are racing yacht designed knowing they will use crew as. ballast

 

[LittleSister]

I sold a 1969 Bowman 26 to a Portuguese guy who had trouble regisitering it because there was nothing official about the max number of persons it was designed to carry...

Iberians do so like the detail and have forgotten their seafaring history

It's not just Iberians. My boat has the original Danish plate certifying the designed max occupants capacity. (I can't remember the approved number, maybe 8?)

 

[Wansworth]

It's not just Iberians. My boat has the original Danish plate certifying the designed max occupants capacity. (I can't remember the approved number, maybe 8?)

Forieign ers

 

[LittleSister]

Are racing yacht designed knowing they will use crew as. ballast

I don't know, but imagine so. (They would need to take that into account for purposes of rig strength, at least.)

In the absence of crew for ballast you would have to reef earlier, and might not meet the particular class rules for racing.

 

[LittleSister]

Forieign ers

What do those Iberian and Nordic types know about sailing, anyway?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I don't know, but imagine so. (They would need to take that into account for purposes of rig strength, at least.)

In the absence of crew for ballast you would have to reef earlier, and might not meet the particular class rules for racing.

Of course they are. It’s one more thing that makes many retired racers less good as cruisers.

 

[Wansworth]

What do those Iberian and Nordic types know about sailing, anyway?

 

[LittleSister]

It’s one more thing that makes many retired racers less good as cruisers.

Are we talking boats or skippers here?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Are we talking boats or skippers here?

Delete as appropriate I guess. Though I was meaning the boats, in context with the boat design theme. I’m a racing skipper and crew who cruises. Some people on my boat do look strangely at me when I hold the spinnaker sheet in my hand.

 

[Concerto]

Are racing yacht designed knowing they will use crew as. ballast

Technically yes. The rules allow limbs to be outside the lifelines but none of the torso, so you can dangle your legs over the toe rail and the arms must be over the top lifeline. You are not allowed to put your head between the upper and lower lifelines. This was brought in as IIRC one race boat fitted trapeze wires to make the windward crew members body weight even more efficient.

 

[flaming]

Are racing yacht designed knowing they will use crew as. ballast

Depends...
Full on inshore racing machines like the cape 31, yes of course. Crew weight is an important part of their stability, and you shouldn't expect to be able to sail upwind at all well without the weight on the rail.
Cruiser racers, yes in terms that the gear needs to be sized for the potential righting moment increase of a full crew, but to fulfil the "cruiser" part of the brief they have to be sailable without the weight on the rail.
Same goes for short handed racers, you need to ensure that the extra righting moment of a full crew hiking is not going to break things, but the boat needs to be able to sail upwind well without the weight on the rail.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

The answer to that design dilemma is sufficiently obvious to me that I own that answer.

 

[flaming]

The answer to that design dilemma is sufficiently obvious to me that I own that answer.

That brings other design dilemmas though...

There's no such thing as the perfect boat for all use cases. If there was we'd all own the same boat.

 

[mjcoon]

Technically yes. The rules allow limbs to be outside the lifelines but none of the torso, so you can dangle your legs over the toe rail and the arms must be over the top lifeline. You are not allowed to put your head between the upper and lower lifelines. This was brought in as IIRC one race boat fitted trapeze wires to make the windward crew members body weight even more efficient.

Ah, like this?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

That brings other design dilemmas though...

There's no such thing as the perfect boat for all use cases. If there was we'd all own the same boat.

And it would make a stroll round a marina quite boring.
Of course a multihull just brings in s whole new load of design compromises. But it puts a smile on our faces to outperform anything but a fully crewed GP racer if it’s 40 ft or less, and often much bigger too. Less of a smile for many if they see where we sleep. It’s not what you’d call voluminous.

 

[flaming]

And it would make a stroll round a marina quite boring.
Of course a multihull just brings in s whole new load of design compromises. But it puts a smile on our faces to outperform anything but a fully crewed GP racer if it’s 40 ft or less, and often much bigger too. Less of a smile for many if they see where we sleep. It’s not what you’d call voluminous.

Fast, comfortable, cheap(ish). Pick any 2.

 

[fredrussell]

... But it puts a smile on our faces to outperform anything but a fully crewed GP racer if it’s 40 ft or less, and often much bigger too.

What about sub-40ft planing monohulls downwind? Can’t be much in it Shirley? In the blurb from Beneteau re their First 27.7 they talk about seeing 15kts with a kite up. Surely a mid 30s Pogo, RM or such like would be good for upwards of 15kts on the plane in a decent blow.
My mate has a 30ft-ish Dragonfly. He’s a very competent sailor and he’s had her up to 18kts but he said it was “somewhat terrifying” and truly a white knuckle ride.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Fast, comfortable, cheap(ish). Pick any 2.

To be fair, multis are very often expensive and less comfortable. Ours was uncomfortably more expensive than a similar age mono.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

What about sub-40ft planing monohulls downwind? Can’t be much in it Shirley? In the blurb from Beneteau re their First 27.7 they talk about seeing 15kts with a kite up. Surely a mid 30s Pogo, RM or such like would be good for upwards of 15kts on the plane in a decent blow.
My mate has a 30ft-ish Dragonfly. He’s a very competent sailor and he’s had her up to 18kts but he said it was “somewhat terrifying” and truly a white knuckle ride.

He’s probably got the same as us. I mentioned the 15knot factor earlier I think. I daresay similar size monos are the same, there comes a certain point where you instinctively hold the sheets in your hand, concentration goes up a level etc. And you mentally check you’ve got enough underwear. I’m confident I can leave a Pogo 30 or similar, though not ‘for dead‘ like many other monos. Their fastest point of sailing is also our fastest. Kite up reach, apparent wind 90 degrees. We’ll equal wind speed up to 20kn, when any sane person would think enough was enough. Upwind, such boats cannot compete. They’re also not much better below decks, and not much cheaper!

and just to put it out there, we rarely sail like that. We would never try it only 2 up, you need at least 1 more to deal with the beast, unleashed. But it’s not that much slower with a comfortable reef. 15kn is the comfort limit, you could say.