Boat Choice?

[tokenjam]

After a sensible suggestion from Snowleopard about the choice of first boat, I have been looking at smaller, cheaper boats.
I have become attracted to boats like the Rustler/Sovereign 32 et al.
Does anyone have view if this would be a better place to start than a modern, fin keel boat.
Are they more stable, easier to sail, more/less expensive to maintain etc.
Good posts re haggling BTW, great info for a novice.

 

[jonjo]

Does anyone have view if this would be a better place to start than a modern, fin keel boat.

There is one point you should consider that overrides all other advice on this subject.

As a group yachtsmen are highly capable people of above average intelligence, in their leisure time they like to create challenges and feel the sense of satisfaction dealing with those challenges.

Some here would have you believe that all fin keel yachts manufactured in the last 20 years were sold to naive fools. The actual truth is the vast majority of yachtsmen are smart people and purchased the right boat for their personal needs. The real fools are the blinkered long-keel heavy-displacement minority who believe that the other 90% of yachtsmen have purchased a turkey.

If you want good advice on selecting a yacht design you need to provide a ton of details about yourself: age, physical agility, budget, distance from boat, country/region, free time for sailing, % of boat time you expect to commit to DIY, DIY skill level, domestic expectations of the principal crew, max size of crew, your personal height, what type of sailing your aspire to, do you want to commune with nature and curlews up muddy creeks or raft up with gin swigging mateys of a class association each weekend, do you want to partake in some low key club racing, do you hope to be swinging at anchor off the coast of Turkey or a Caribbean isle in 3 years time?

 

[jason -and the arguenauts]

(apologies for the caps - I only noticed when I looked at the screen half way through and dont have time to re-type).

pROVIDED A SECOND HAND BOAT HAS BEEN WELL MAINTAINED AND KEPT UP TO DATE THERE IS NO REASON WHY IT SHOULD COST MORE TO KEEP GOING THAN A NEW OR NEWER ONE . tHE ONLY PITFALL i SHOULD WATCH OUT FOR IS BOATS IN THE 10 TO 15 YEAR OLD CATEGORY WHERE LOTS OF THE ORIGINAL KIT IS BEGINNING TO SHOW ITS AGE - a mistake I have made three times!

People sail for the joy of handling a boat under sail but are often swayed in the buying process by the size of the aft cabin etc. In other words its the glitz and the caravan bit that attracts buyers, particularly wives. Dont fall into this trap. There are many more efficient and cheaper ways of getting from A to B that a yacht so chose one that sails really well above the accomodation.

It helps if its well laid out for single handing because once the novelty has worn off, crew are not always available.

It helps if its a known standard boat - reselling a one off is always more difficult.

Unless you are going southern ocean or are a closet headbanger, seaworthyness isnt really an issue. There arent any really unseaworthy modern boats around though people will mutter about the MacGregors. But you wouldnt buy one of them if you wanted a boat that was a delight to sail anyway.

Dont get sucked into the ancient mariner / long keel / heavy displacement clique. They are a bit like Morgan car drivers amonsgt motor enthusiasts. Nobody has told them that we are in the 21st century. Ditto the wooden boat owners whose real hobby is boat maintenance.

Above all, sit on your wallet until you have enough experience to know what you are looking at. Carter. Go on flotillas. Join a club and chat to the members. Sail with them. But dont buy early because boats are harder to sell than to buy by a long way.

 

[tokenjam]

Thanks for the answer, I was reluctant to go into too much detail as 'proper sailors' must get sick & tired of offering hard won advice to beginers.
I'm a fairly strong, fit 6'2", sixty one yo, who really wants to sail just because I love the sea - watching it, being on it, had 1 flotila hol on a 44 in Med and the only other exp is day skip ticket. but I want to improve on that
I enjoy challenges and problem solving.
Moving to SW to get closer to the boat I (sorry WE) will eventually own.
Want to wobble around the south coast, evaluate my competences and see where we end up
Maybe take some freinds along when I can find some
Reasonable at DIY (well I've got loads of toys - sorry I meant tools) and looking foward to a flexible semi-retired working week.
Well you did ask

 

[photodog]

I was gonna say EXACTLY what Jason said above..... Good advice....

 

[doug748]

After a sensible suggestion from Snowleopard about the choice of first boat, I have been looking at smaller, cheaper boats.
I have become attracted to boats like the Rustler/Sovereign 32 et al.
Does anyone have view if this would be a better place to start than a modern, fin keel boat.
Are they more stable, easier to sail, more/less expensive to maintain etc.
Good posts re haggling BTW, great info for a novice.

The boats mentioned are fine machines but will be no easier to learn on than a lighter displacement model. They will be different though.
In certain conditions they will be more comfortable and also, at times, slower. In poor conditions they will provide a more stable platform at sea and will also not require constant attention on the helm. They will not tack so quickly and will be of limited use in round the cans racing.
In one important respect they may not meet your needs, that is for close quarter marina work. They are heavy boats and are particularly tricky in reverse. The last thing you need, when everything is new, is to worry unduely about getting out or in. Having said this if you are attracted to the type - Then Go For It. If you are particularly thinking of a swinging mooring and anchor work then the older boats will have the edge.
Personally if I were given FOC a 35ft AWB boat, I doubt I would even sail it. The only thing that would detain me would be how much I could get for it, to put towards something that suited me better. I don't expect you to be the same as me and nor should anybody else.
A well maintained older boat need not be expensive to keep in good order but it will probably cost a bundle to buy. It has already been pointed out that some pretty new boats can be in need of a lot of expensive work.
I am getting fed up of my own voice. What is my advice......?
Keep most of your £50 grand in the bank. Buy the cheapest Sadler 29 (or maybe 32) that you can buy. Sail it as much as you can. At the end of 2 years you will need no advice from anyone - you will know what you want. Whilst still, with average fortune, get back what you paid. Unless you decide to keep it! Good Luck.

 

[Pete7]

My suggestion would be to take a weekday off work and go down to Swanwick the second hand boat show on the Hamble. You will have the opportunity to view a large number of yachts in one morning and then down to Hamble point in the afternoon for a repeat the exercise.

Your height might be a problem so check not only you can stand up easily but also lie down in the bunks with enough room to sleep comfortably.

This should give a good idea of what you get for the money, the likely condition of secondhand yachts so you recognise the really good ones and those best avoided (I took 11 year daughter and the expression on her face when we boarded one that just smelled and looked really tatty said it all, didn't even bother suggesting it to her mother).

Some will sell at the boatshow, some won't. At the end of the show winter will be approaching owners will know they have the costs of storage over the winter ahead of them and fewer chance to sell until next spring. An offer during a cold and wet Oct / Nov weekday might just have the desired result.

Take your time and enjoy, if you find her, photograph her and you can always ask about a specific model or mark. Doug makes the case for the long keel hull shape, my choice would be something like this:

http://www.yachtworld-international...rrency=GBP&access=Public&listing_id=1413&url=

Pete

 

[jonjo]

I was reluctant to go into too much detail as 'proper sailors' must get sick & tired of offering hard won advice to beginners.

Actually far more irritating is the questioner who says "what is the best boat between 37' and 38' I can buy for £60k FULL STOP". There is no such thing as the best boat, there are suitable boats for people with specific requirements.

had 1 flotila hol on a 44 in Med and the only other exp is day skip ticket. but I want to improve on that

OK before you get too far down the boat selection road I think you need to experience some typical adverse English Channel weather. This is not to suggest you are likely to wimp out of the whole endeavor but it might change your preferences for cockpit shelter. A quick scan around UK based boats will highlight all sorts of bolt-on windshield contraptions as owners try to convert pure open cockpit sailing boats into pseudo motor sailors. At the very least you might be swayed towards one of the Scandinavian designs with their quick errect cockpit conservatories. A Malo 36 is an excellent example.

Moving to SW to get closer to the boat I (sorry WE) will eventually own. Want to wobble around the south coast

This means you need a touch more displacement than what we Solent types can get away with in our sheltered lake.

fit 6'2"

That rules out many yachts from the 1960's and 1970's that were designed for a shorter population. Be vary of berths shorter than 6'7".

Maybe take some freinds along when I can find some

Sounds like you will want to singlehand at times in which case a long keel coupled with a marina would be a serious impediment to going for a spontaneous sail.

Here are some other random thoughts:

You will end up doing far more motoring than expected, so min of 3 pots with an excess of hp's.
Don't overlook tankage, anything less than 150l (water) cuts your independence from marinas.
Sailing in UK waters without a heater is tough.
Many folks in their 60's discover the French inland waterways so make sure your selected design fits.
Don't fret over the in-mast main furling debate, either will do.
A modern aft toilet/shower compartment is a real bonus plus = more independence from shore facilities.

Given your limited experience don't stray too far from middle of the road. Tis easy to get sidetracked towards yachting equivalents of a LandRover or Morgan 4+4 when what you really need is a Ford Focus.

Checkout a Vancouver 32, you would be pleasantly surprised by a Bavaria 34 and don't let the wife tour around the inside of a Nauticat 331.

 

[tokenjam]

Clucking Bell!

I thought I would take the weekend off but I can see you guys have given me a lot to think about.
Thanks for the the time and contributions, I will carefully read through all your suggestions and take stock.
It's strange Pete7, I was looking at the very boat (on the web of course) it looks very nice and I 'spose you can't go wrong with a moody.
Bit envious of all you guy out there messing about on this fine morning

 

[Babylon]

For what its worth, we bought an older Vancouver 27, a heavy displacement long keeler with cutter rig, 2.5 yrs ago as our first boat, and we love her. Some observations:

Keel type doesn't effect maintenance costs - age, how well she has been looked after in previous ownerships, and how much work you're able to do yourself does.

Long keel and heavy displacement isn't 'better' or 'worse' than light-displacement fin keel, its just different. Heavier displacement and long-keel:
- More momentum, so boat carries way longer and also takes longer to pick up speed again after a tack, which you soon get used to;
- More underwater area means more resistance, limiting speed (although we've seen 6.9kn with a clean bottom on a beam reach!), however speed is more a function of waterline length, and we average 4.0 to 4.5kn;
- Slightly more antifouling paint needed than a fin keeler;
- Won't rise up onto surface of water and plane;
- Different, in my opinion more comfortable, motion at sea;
- Tends to track better (long keel), and less likely to suddenly broach in a squall;
- Less beam (especially aft) than modern boats, so less room below;
- Unpredicable in astern (although Vancouvers aren't as bad as some), a factor which you plan for in advance (eg request an outside berth on a tidal river pontoon, or warp her around at slack water before the tide builds, etc);
- Long keel enables you to dry out against a wall or piles with a little less anxiety than a fin keel.

We keep ours on a fore-and-aft mooring on the Hamble which is exposed to south-westerlies with a strong ebb tide, yet average success in picking up the mooring is first or second time. I can also turn her with confidence in fairly tight marina spaces if they're non-tidal.

We've recently thought about getting a slightly bigger boat but, even though we've decided to defer our decision for a year or so, still keen on long-keel.

Ultimately, though, its a personal thing. I find the look (aesthetic) of older boats, even if moulded in fibreglass rather than constructed in wood, more pleasant than modern ones, a factor that is perhaps wayward, romantic and irrational - but its my money, my time and my pleasure!

Babs

PS Just one other thing to say (as others have said): until you've owned and sailed your first boat, you won't know exactly what will suit you in the longer term, so its worth considering buying a fairly inexpensive, relatively small boat (27-30ft) which you can sail short-handed (crew is often a problem for skippers newish to sailing) and build your understanding from personal experience.

 

[Pete7]

It's Bit envious of all you guy out there messing about on this fine morning

I wish, spent the day replacing the sink waste pipe could have done with a small child to shove into the back of the cabinets to feed it though, unfortunately ours are now taller than me

You have a message with some background info on that Moody.

Regards Pete

 

[tokenjam]

Hi Babs
Thanks for that info, all this experience is really useful and although as you've said, it is a matter of personal choice, other peoples opinions are of greate value
Tony