blisters and wicking

[fishy]

Over the last couple of weeks I've had some helpful advice from this site on a developing situation. The position is now very clear so i wonder if i could ask for more?
In Dec 2001 I bought a ten year old boat. I paid to have it taken out of the water and professionally surveyed. The surveyor stated in the report"...the underwater area of the hull was in sound condition , with no evidence of structural damage or any blisters showing through from beneath the layers of paint." When he surveyed it the boat was only one day out of the water and he quoted the meter readings as between 6 and 14 on the Sovereign meter.
When we took the boat out of the water this new year(13 monthes after the survey)there was clear evidence of blistering. Being appalled by this I asked the surveyor to come back(at his own expense) and look at the hull. This he did.He reported back " On inspecting the hull small blisters were visible over a large proportion of the underwater area". He said this was due to wicking. He also reported that the readings had gone up to between 12 and 17.( and that was after three weeks out of the water)
The surveyor claims that he acted entirely in good faith and presented an accurate picture of the hull at the time he did the original survey. His only suggestion by way of explanation is that it has spent the last year in an area of mixed salt and fresh water. In fact that is where it had been kept for several years immediately prior to my buying it.
My questions are a)do i just have to accept the surveyors denial of any responsibility for this situation.b)would it actually help to move the boat to a more salt water mooring c)If i go for professional remedial action e.g. paying about £4k on stripping off the gelcoat and replacing it would the boat be likely to be "as good as new". Any comments on any of this would be gratefully received. Many thanks.

 

[longjohnsilver]

Not too surprised by the increased readings, also wouldn't be overly worried, wicking does not necessarikly lead to osmotic blisters. As you probably know boats moored in fresh water are more prone to osmosis so better to moor in seawater.

As to surveyors responsibility I would suggest you talk the situation over with him, can't really advise doing much else.

My previous boat suffered from wicking, in the 6 years I had it it got no worse, and I kept it ashore for the year before I sold her and the hull dried out almost completely. This is contrary to all the so called perceived wisdom re osmosis, makes me think that most of it is scare mongering to persuade us to part with hard earned cash. I would be tempted to buy your own moisture meter so you can keep track of future hull conditions. I have the Tramex skipper and would recommend it.

 

[paulg]

The Surveyor should? be a member of a professional body that maintain standards amongst their members. He will have Professional Indemnity insurance . Start by contacting the body and see if a quiet word will move things along. It does not seem (in my humble opinion) that a 10 year hull that got a clean bill of health has suddenly developed blisters in the following year.It's a long process and IF the blisters are osmotic then I think they where probably there at the original survey.If so why were they not visible.I don't think they disappear they are permanent blisters. Did you look at the hull ? Have you scraped the antifoul back to gelcoat and had a close look?When you puncture a osmotic blister it leaks a styrene (vinigar) smell. So establish 1st if it's osmosis. As I understandit, Wicking is the capilliary action of water travelling thro the unwetted fibreglass "tubes" It looks like white lines in the gelcoat. We all have them somewhere on the hull.and they seem to dry out over lift out.
Sorry I can't be more use but you need professional advice about the hull and legal if it comes to that.PS We have not heard of any boat sinking because of blisters.I do know some owners that burst,countersunk,washed regularly and then filled all the damage in with dabs of epoxy.Sadly the value of your investment will take a hammering when you come to sell if the hull is in poor shape.

paul

 

[kgi]

surveyors are a slippery bunch,they treat a survey like an mot, eg, "it was good on the day". That said if you can afford the time (and the money) put it on the hill for the summer, strip all the antifouling off, let it dry out any large blisters that still stand out at the end of the drying out period grind out wash out with fresh water leave for a few weeks wash out with trichloroethylene, fill and VC tar the whole bottom, if you have wet bilges its a good idea to dry them out and epoxy paint the bilge, lots of people will disagree with what i have said......but it worked for me....keith

 

[jonjo]

> I have the Tramex skipper and would recommend it.

I plan to buy a meter but haven’t a clue about the cost?

 

[FlyingSpud]

Legal question I am afraid which means you need to see a solicitor to go through all of the papers as without seeing them no one can give you realistic advice. (i.e. may be provision for arbitration and so on to cover this situation)

Having said that, the basic questions you will have to ask will be:-
1. Is there a defect in the hull?
2. If so was it likely to have been there when you bought the boat 13
months ago?
3. If so, should a normally competent surveyor have seen it?
4. If he should have, will you suffer a loss as a result if you want to
sell the boat?

If the answer is yes to the above, then it is time for m’learned friends. The problem is that you don’t know, because you are not a surveyor. The only person who can give you the answers to the above is another surveyor.

This means you are going to have to consider getting a report from a second independent surveyor at some time, but the first surveyor may not accept this report. Courts now insist on both parties agreeing a joint expert if it is before them, so you will have to pay a third time. So the best answer may be to see if you can agree with the surveyor now someone you can both trust to prepare such a report, your solicitor will advise the best way of setting this up.

 

[30boat]

Around £300

 

[Guest]

Professional body ...... which one can you actually say is that ? The 'profession' and I am one .... is a loosely uncontrolled one and any 'bodies' you THINK are controlling it are actually self appointed associations without any authority other than to remove that surveyor from its membership. I do not belong to them - I refuse. I own my own Marine Survey Company and we maintain strict standards internally.

As to the original posting - sad story and my feelings are with the owner here. I have frequently said on this and other forums that reliance on Sovereign Meter is not advised, second that Wicking is diagnosed by understanding the observed hull - not by meter which has no way of deciding which the culrity is ... Osmosis or wicking etc.

The soveriegn is a shallow depth instrument and has only really grabbed hold of the market because in early years it was basically the only instrument available at the time. There are better in my opinion now.

The moisture problem in the hull was likely already present but may have been missed due to the lack of checking UNDER the paint ... as the original positing said ..... no evidence through the layers.

You will see various claims by meters that they can detect THROUGH paint / anti-fouling etc. Not a good idea as we need to know if its trapped water under the paint or actually in the layup, also that some paints, particularly epoxy based give false readings etc. So a scrape back to hull surface I'm afraid to check the hull for moisture penetration .... typified by the underhull having patches where previous surveyors have checked ..... we've all seen it at the brokers !!!

After 13 months - I think you may have a difficult case ..... but best of luck .....


Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[Guest]

Wicking is NOT Osmosis

Wicking can dry out ... as long as the entry is not blocked / sealed ..... Osmosis is a different ball game altogether and has no single entry point etc.

Osmosis will not dry out as some people claim .... what you have here is what appears to be drying out of osmotic activity, but is likely to be drying out of coating over the top of the hull surface. This is another reason why metering straight from the hoist is not advised - but regularly done ! having metered a boat after lift from the water, then meter again a month later ----- the misconception that drying has occurred arises .... no the a/fouling etc. has dried, the hull surface has dried etc. etc.

I don't really care who shouts at me on this - it is my professional observation and opinion ......


Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[Guest]

about 200 smacks .....

but do me and other surveyors a favour .... use it and try to understand what it tells you. Even some surveyors get to use a Tramex and go do-ally ... it is sensitive and will frighten anyone without first understanding the results.


Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[sfh]

when i purchased my first boat i was overcharger for the survey £650 for a hull only survey on a 36 foot sports cruiser. the boat had been out of the water for over four years and i question, in hindsight, what was the point in checking the readings. have bought two boats since both were not surveyed,working on the principle that if anything was wrong the cost of the survey would go towards the cost of repairs. I have heard of brokers "picking the surveyer"

 

[Guest]

Technically speaking ....

Brokers are not supposed to 'pick surveyors' ....they are equired to stay independent. Having been approached by brokers and having approached others myself !! The answer is to that they offered to place my name at or near top of their list given to clients. Also that they would 'whisper' my name to them as having 'done a good job on a boat previous etc.'

I decided that underhand help was not needed.

If you find a Broker who 'pushes' a sole surveyor - ask him direct ..... What and why you give one name ?? Maybe he's a member of the self-appoined Association that claims allsorts of ........ but better I don't upset anyone here now !!!


Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[longjohnsilver]

Re: Wicking is NOT Osmosis

I entirely agree with you Nigel, obviously osmotic blisters cannot dry without treatment, but as you know not all blisters are osmotic.

The boat in question had been out of the water for some time before I bought it and was surveyed by a well kown surveyor and osmosis expert, as I had no idea at the time as to what osmosis was it would have helped for him to have included in his report a little more info. Since then I have read almost everything I can on the subject so now know a little better!