Bill of sale

[Irish Rover]

My part 1 certificate specifically states that it is not proof of ownership!

The CERTIFATE is not.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

The CERTIFATE is not.

But the bill of sale is.

 

[Tranona]

But the bill of sale is.

Strictly speaking no - it is "Title" which is not the same as ownership, although in most cases the 2 are the same. Examples of where it is not include club owned boats, boats owned by trusts, boats owned by limited companies. In all those cases beneficial ownership is by persons other than those registering the title. This is what makes it difficult to trace the real owners of Russian oligarchs boats for example.

 

[KompetentKrew]

I disagree with you and partly with T ...

The matter needs clarification from the Pt1 Registry .... if the boat has been removed from Pt1 ... then why the 64 / 64 BoS ..... there's no need for that sort of wording. A simple BoS would suffice.... assuming that the owner of the 1 share was cleared from ownership.

But the wording 64 / 64 is either seller trying to look clever and misunderstanding the share declaration and not still Pt1 - or boat is still Pt1 and needs to be clarified by Register.

People here can post all they like and say this and that ... the point is to contact Pt1 and clear it up from the registry properly. While making sure Seller / Broker are aware of their 'gaff' !!

I can't believe that the boat is on the Part 1 register because surely title would then be clear?

If the boat is on the Part 1 and the only name on the certificate is @pandos then I would think that full ownership of the boat was transferred to @pandos at the time of the sale.

And I think you're right that the sixty-fourths on the bill of sale are just an affectation in this case.

I had to look this up, but the MCA bill of sale states that title does not transfer "until the appropriate Bill(s) of Sale has been recorded with the Registry, and a new Certificate issued" and that Bill of Sale PDF seems to require the seller to declare that they have the right to make the sale "free from encumbrances". (I assume this must fall on the seller?)

I think that if some 1/64th owner was subsequently to turn up then practically they would have to take it up with whoever sold the boat to @pandos.

If the boat was worth many millions then the 1/64th owner (assuming they exist) then maybe they would litigate and argue that they remain 1/64th beneficial owner and they must be paid off or the boat sold in order for them to get their equity back (same as an unmarried couple splitting up and selling the house they own) but it's not worth arguing over a £20,000 or £50,000 boat.

 

[KompetentKrew]

The registry would not accept just the current BoS but would require at least the previous one so the inconsistency would be questioned.

You seem to be right that OP can't just register the boat on the Part 1 now to make their title clear but it looks like it's just 5 years of bills of sale that are required, not the current and previous. So presumably a previous bill of sale is not needed if you've had the boat 5 years.

I don't mean to be argumentative and I know this doesn't really help OP, just maybe worth saying in case anyone else is thinking of registering.

 

[Tranona]

You seem to be right that OP can't just register the boat on the Part 1 now to make their title clear but it looks like it's just 5 years of bills of sale that are required, not the current and previous. So presumably a previous bill of sale is not needed if you've had the boat 5 years.

I don't mean to be argumentative and I know this doesn't really help OP, just maybe worth saying in case anyone else is thinking of registering.

He has just bought it - although you would not know unless you had read his other posts.

Agree he could register it after 5 years but that would be unlikely to stop a claim from the holder of the other share. He is also in Ireland so unlikely to use Part 1 if he does want registration.

 

[KompetentKrew]

He has just bought it - although you would not know unless you had read his other posts.

Agree he could register it after 5 years but that would be unlikely to stop a claim from the holder of the other share.

Yes, indeed. This is stated in the first post of this thread, which I have read, and the rest of your reply was exactly what my comment was intended to concede to you. I didn't know he lived in Ireland though. I do apologise for being unclear..

 

[pandos]

Boat is not and never was on Part 1.

It and I are in Ireland. We have no SSR. Our part 1 requires proof of ownership right back to the original purchaser.

Spoke to the last owner and the second last owners. Both decent honest men, so things are easy. There is an innocent explanation for the issue, although neither had spotted it.

Another Bill of sale is on its way which will note the transfer to my seller of the 64th share.. which he has already transferred to me and of which he was the beneficial owner.

Thanks for all of the inputs.
I'll update again when all is resolved and after I have a chance to research the legalities.

Afaik our law tends to favour equity whilst English law tends to lean more towards common law...so it might have been an interesting argument had an owner in England trie to recover a 64th of "our"boat..

Even more interesting if it sunk in a channel in the port and the " we owners " were being sued for the cost of removal...

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Boat is not and never was on Part 1.

It and I are in Ireland. We have no SSR. Our part 1 requires proof of ownership right back to the original purchaser.

Spoke to the last owner and the second last owners. Both decent honest men, so things are easy. There is an innocent explanation for the issue, although neither had spotted it.

Another Bill of sale is on its way which will note the transfer to my seller of the 64th share.. which he has already transferred to me and of which he was the beneficial owner.

Thanks for all of the inputs.
I'll update again when all is resolved and after I have a chance to research the legalities.

Afaik our law tends to favour equity whilst English law tends to lean more towards common law...so it might have been an interesting argument had an owner in England trie to recover a 64th of "our"boat..

Even more interesting if it sunk in a channel in the port and the " we owners " were being sued for the cost of removal...

That sounds like a positive and agreeable outcome, good news all round

 

[pandos]

BOS arrived in this mornings post so it looks like legal and beneficial ownership have once again been united in the one party.

So a question. Does the SSR receive a copy of the Bills of Sale when the registration is done and if so is it possible for a new owner or obtain copies of these.?

The reason being that I can go back two owners but I have no real way of knowing how many more have owned the boat. I can guess from the receipts and notes in the papers but there is no actual chain of title..

To register in Ireland I need to go right back to the factory...

Regards

Tony.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Don’t think the SSR does unlike Part 1.

 

[Irish Rover]

To register in Ireland I need to go right back to the factory...

Are you certain sbout this? It's a long time since i did it but I don't recall having to have a complete ownership trail.

 

[pandos]

Are you certain sbout this? It's a long time since i did it but I don't recall having to have a complete ownership trail.

That's what they looked for last year from my friend and it's what the forms ask for. Not sure how flexible they are, but it makes sense on a registry of title to prove each change of ownership...

The guidance is a bit vague as it asks for bill of sale or bills of sale from previous owner or owners, which could relate to one set of owners, but the next requirement speaks of only one bill of sale from the previous owner if the boat is already on the Irish register.

Which suggests they require bills of sale from each previous owner, which AFAIK means right back to the builders cert.

I'd love to believe otherwise...

I understand that there is a new sort of certificate being produced by the sailing association which is masquerading as a registration document, I'll probably just get one of these, and put it in a nice green cover with a nice gold harp embossed on it.

Mercantile Marine Office (MMO)

 

[Bristolfashion]

Probably a typo. It doesn't matter unless you think someone's going to sue you for 1/64th the value of the boat, which I would think unlikely.

Is it registered at present? Do you plan to register it? SSR or Part 1?

What is the value of the boat?

When did the previous sale take place? The alleged 63/64th sale.

And, if course, make sure they are presented with a bill for 1/64th of every possible expense - including your own labour!

 

[Irish Rover]

That's what they looked for last year from my friend and it's what the forms ask for. Not sure how flexible they are, but it makes sense on a registry of title to prove each change of ownership...

The guidance is a bit vague as it asks for bill of sale or bills of sale from previous owner or owners, which could relate to one set of owners, but the next requirement speaks of only one bill of sale from the previous owner if the boat is already on the Irish register.

Which suggests they require bills of sale from each previous owner, which AFAIK means right back to the builders cert.

I'd love to believe otherwise...

I understand that there is a new sort of certificate being produced by the sailing association which is masquerading as a registration document, I'll probably just get one of these, and put it in a nice green cover with a nice gold harp embossed on it.

Mercantile Marine Office (MMO)

I found the Mercantile Marine Office and Customs really helpful on the phone when i was doing it around 15 years ago. It's definitely worth talking to them.
The Irish Sailing Association used to have an informal nod and a wink understanding with the authorities to issue certificates but my understanding is this was outlawed for new certificates some years ago. It's possible some new arrangement is in place of which I'm not aware.

 

[Momac]

When we bought our current boat, Mrs Winch and self are noted on the registration and bill of sale as both having ownership of all 64 shares. It might seem common sense to split half and half between a couple but IHT might be due if one should die and the other then had to purchase the other 32 shares.

In the UK and for a British couple.....
If you are married and you leave everything to your spouse (if there is a surviving spouse) there is no inheritance tax.
If you are not married that's a different matter.

 

[pandos]

I found the Mercantile Marine Office and Customs really helpful on the phone when i was doing it around 15 years ago. It's definitely worth talking to them.
The Irish Sailing Association used to have an informal nod and a wink understanding with the authorities to issue certificates but my understanding is this was outlawed for new certificates some years ago. It's possible some new arrangement is in place of which I'm not aware.

Yes they are helpful but strict on some things. It's Revenue who do the donkey work of actual registration now once the survey has been done and they want proof of vat payment..

I have an email somewhere from them spelling out their requirements I was in the process of doing it a few years ago before I ended up in hospital, just didn't bother completing it since.

Yes the old nod and wink system has been ended but I think a new system is evolving and there is at least one post on here where the French accepted the new " certificate " at face value.

 

[Tranona]

The SSR is not a register of title. while the current application form requires some evidence of ownership it is not compulsory, neither is any record kept of the BoS. This is however recent and in the past it was self declaration.

The only way of getting a "certified" record of ownership is to register the title on Part 1.

Ypur problem with the Irish registry is that they have "copied" the old UK Part 1 rules which did indeed go back to the beginning because it was designed for commercial ships. However they have now relaxed that rule for leisure craft and only need to go back 5 years or 2 owners. Nothing to stop you registering your boat on the UK Part 1. The only downside for an EU resident with an EU VAT paid boat is that some ignorant customs officials still conflate flag with VAT status when the two are unconnected in EU law.

 

[pandos]

The SSR is not a register of title. while the current application form requires some evidence of ownership it is not compulsory, neither is any record kept of the BoS. This is however recent and in the past it was self declaration.

The only way of getting a "certified" record of ownership is to register the title on Part 1.

Ypur problem with the Irish registry is that they have "copied" the old UK Part 1 rules which did indeed go back to the beginning because it was designed for commercial ships. However they have now relaxed that rule for leisure craft and only need to go back 5 years or 2 owners. Nothing to stop you registering your boat on the UK Part 1. The only downside for an EU resident with an EU VAT paid boat is that some ignorant customs officials still conflate flag with VAT status when the two are unconnected in EU law.

As a non UK resident can I put the boat on the UK part one.

This may be a shortcut to Irish part one. ..

From the Irish authorities site........If the ship was previously registered outside the State, a Certificate of Deletion should
be sought from either the previous owner or the issuing Authority and should be forwarded
to your chosen Registrar of Ships along with a Bill of Sale (or Bills of Sale) detailing the
sale from the previous registered owner to the current owner. Bill of Sale forms are
available from your chosen Registrar of Ships. Please note that registration on a ‘small
ships register’ i.e. SSR in the UK, may not be considered as ‘registration’ in this instance
unless the ‘small ships register’ was a ‘title’ register. The SSR in the UK is not a ‘title’
register, whereas registration on the main register in the UK is.

 

[Tranona]

Yes. It is an open register, you just need a representative address in UK for correspondence.

That is not a "loophole" and normal to transfer from one title register to another - again mainly aimed at commercial ships but would work for yachts, but not in your case.