Bilge pump question

[Daydream believer]

My engine start battery is electrically and physically separate from the domestic bank so there is no way that it can be accidentally discharged. Have done this on my last three boats as it seems a bit silly to link them other than through charging circuits. When engine is running starter battery has priority charging.

If one has an issue starting the engine the starter battery can get low. I only have a 35 amp red Flash for starting. No point in carrying a bigger one with the extra weight. If it goes flat I have an additional switch to link the domestics to the starter. Same as my friend. But one has to remember to turn it back off once the engine has charged the starter. It is probably the same as your system except you possibly would have to use jump leads to link them.
Obviously that can be seen to be linked & one would not make the mistake of leaving them as such. But it is not so neat & takes time to set up.
Lots of people have a rotary 123 switch which does the same thing.

 

[LittleSister]

Long ago a friend, planning major trips and fearful of excessive reliance on batteries/alternators/wiring and elbow grease for bilge pumping in an emergency, had a large capacity pulley-driven pump mounted on the engine (in addition to manual pumps, and possibly also an electric pump). Normally unconnected to the engine, in the event of an emergency the belt could be put on and, provided you could start the engine, you had reliable and continuous pumping at a rate not practically obtainable (at the time) by electric pumps. Not seen or heard of such an arrangement since.

 

[geem]

The pumps with built in water proximity sensors don't work if they get covered with a thin film of oil or diesel. as would happen if you had even a small leak or spill.

Yep, mineral oil is a great insulator

 

[TNLI]

Yep, mineral oil is a great insulator

The one I have works on a detector that is capacitance, not resistance based so it works with any fluid.

 

[TNLI]

If one has an issue starting the engine the starter battery can get low. I only have a 35 amp red Flash for starting. No point in carrying a bigger one with the extra weight. If it goes flat I have an additional switch to link the domestics to the starter. Same as my friend. But one has to remember to turn it back off once the engine has charged the starter. It is probably the same as your system except you possibly would have to use jump leads to link them.
Obviously that can be seen to be linked & one would not make the mistake of leaving them as such. But it is not so neat & takes time to set up.
Lots of people have a rotary 123 switch which does the same thing.

If you read accident reports you will find that one main reason why crews abandon yachts prematurely, is that some clown has selected both, and they have not noticed a low voltage until it was too late, because the only voltmeter was on the instrument panel in the cockpit area.
Cheap adjustable low voltage alarm board: 12-36V Battery Low Voltage Disconnect Protection Module DC Output UK | eBay

 

[TNLI]

My fuel tank is below the cabin sole. Grp and built into the boat. No drain on tank. Pipes are top connected so no leaks. He tanks are structural. Can't say a leak would never happen but vastly reduced risk

So does he & so do I, but he made a mistake. I have in the past as well, I am sure that I am not the only one, especially those with combined 123 switches. . We both have monitors on our domestic bank, but not the starter battery. We cannot see them from the cockpit. You have to remember these are not live aboard boats with loads of stuff wired up all over the place. Most of the time he does club racing with the RNSYC out of Ostend, with an annual cruise. That is the sort of thing many do with smaller AWBs like ours. They are simply not set up for serious offshore blue water sailing. I doubt that many would contemplate Stavanger to Ostend in one leg SH, as part of a normal trip in a 311 for a holiday between work commitments.
So talk of loads of power for electric pumps has to be taken in context with the boat & the set up. That is all I was trying to put over.
He now has a power pack in reserve
Personally, I try not to go below when sailing to look at instruments. I get sea sick in a few minutes. In rough weather, it is difficult to leave the helm anyway.

The best place for an engine instrument panel is just inside the cokpit, not outside. Same for engine alarm buzzer.

 

[TNLI]

X

 

[geem]

The best place for an engine instrument panel is just inside the cokpit, not outside. Same for engine alarm buzzer.

Do you know what a cockpit is? It appears not.

 

[geem]

The one I have works on a detector that is capacitance, not resistance based so it works with any fluid.

But it is electronic so it will still fail

 

[fredrussell]

The beauty of an electric pump

But it is electronic so it will still fail

The trouble with an over-reliance on electronic safety systems is that boats do occasionally get struck by lightning, particularly in your neck of the woods, no? I’ve got two electric bilge pumps, but also two manual ones. Not having a manual backup for such a vital thing as a bilge pump seems very poor seamanship to me.

 

[geem]

The trouble with an over-reliance on electronic safety systems is that boats do occasionally get struck by lightning, particularly in your neck of the woods, no? I’ve got two electric bilge pumps, but also two manual ones. Not having a manual backup for such a vital thing as a bilge pump seems very poor seamanship to me.

I have two Henderson mk5 pumps on my lavac toilets. They can easily be jury rigged to pump the bilge. I carry a couple of strum boxes for such eventuality.
Lightning here is no more common than the UK. Head to Panama in the summer and its a completely different story.
Like I have said in previous posts. In an emergency, what do you actually expect to achieve with a single manual pump? If we have a lightning strike that blows out a skin fitting in the bottom of the boat we will have an influx of at least 15,000 litres per hour. With two of us onboard, one operating a manual pump that can do 60 litre per minute will have no effect on that inflow. Its a waste of time. Far better to have two crew dealing with blocking the leak. Once the leak is reduced to a manageable flow we can start to pump out with manual pumps assuming we don't have anything else available. If the engine will run then sucking from the engine room bilge would be an option. Ditto the generator raw water intake.the engine room is metal lined so hopefully a Faraday cage with some resistance to lightning

 

[TNLI]

Do you know what a cockpit is? It appears not.

Oooops, got that one backwards, as the best place for the engine panel is just inside the cabin, so you can access it from the cockpit or below. For a big boat you might need to increase the size of the alarm buzzer or bell. Some control panel connections corrode, so in the long term the best place is in the cabin. For a real big boat with dual engine Morse units, you can get dual control panels. I wired by last yachts panel electric to include an auto shut down, so when the alarm system activates it turns shuts the engine down. That's a common feature of marine generator sets, but only involves a few wires and a hold off button that you press to disconnect the system when starting.
Lifeboar reg's are a bit more complicated, as the autu shut off has to have an auto restart. There are several ways of wiring that, but the simplest involves a mecury switch and a timer. That way when a lifeboat rolls over or pitchpoles for long enough that the low oil pressure sounds the alarm bell, the engines cuts out, BUT restarts when it is back upright.

 

[TNLI]

I have two Henderson mk5 pumps on my lavac toilets. They can easily be jury rigged to pump the bilge. I carry a couple of strum boxes for such eventuality.
Lightning here is no more common than the UK. Head to Panama in the summer and its a completely different story.
Like I have said in previous posts. In an emergency, what do you actually expect to achieve with a single manual pump? If we have a lightning strike that blows out a skin fitting in the bottom of the boat we will have an influx of at least 15,000 litres per hour. With two of us onboard, one operating a manual pump that can do 60 litre per minute will have no effect on that inflow. Its a waste of time. Far better to have two crew dealing with blocking the leak. Once the leak is reduced to a manageable flow we can start to pump out with manual pumps assuming we don't have anything else available. If the engine will run then sucking from the engine room bilge would be an option. Ditto the generator raw water intake.the engine room is metal lined so hopefully a Faraday cage with some resistance to lightning

Great toilet the Lavac, never leave port without one. My one and only Lavac has been converted with a Y valve to divert the intake from the bowl to the bilge. Manual and macerator for reliabilty and reduction in the size of the outlet fittings. It's rare for a production yacht to have a skin fiiting blown out, more common with motor or power boats that do not have a Faraday cage system to a good ground. Luckly my hull is alloy, and the A frame mast bolts directly onto the alloy side beams. If the mast is folded down or removed, I've use right angle plates along the edges that lead to the same beams. Alas the solar panels would get fried, or the HF receivers aft twig will be shattered.

I don't want to get any of my electronics fried, so everthing serious has an alloy case and associated earth wire. All the electrics will have a power plug that is easy to remove, or a double pole switch. Alas I often need to leave my Kenny R-600 on during thunderstorms, so I've fitted surge protectors to both the no 2, (3db stubby outside the cage), VHF and R-600. The HF transceiver, a Kenwood TS-120 with an AT-130 has a double pole power switch and the antenna can be selected to a dummy earth, and along with an earthed steel case, should be OK. I will screen the main wiring looms if the plan to hide them under the main alloy beams against the hull is rejected by the inspector. No electrics above the top of the A frame, as they are real bad news if struck. Handheld VHF and GPS in alloy bag inside grab bag.

 

[coopec]

The trouble with an over-reliance on electronic safety systems is that boats do occasionally get struck by lightning, particularly in your neck of the woods, no? I’ve got two electric bilge pumps, but also two manual ones. Not having a manual backup for such a vital thing as a bilge pump seems very poor seamanship to me.

Well I have lightning protection but as I'm about to launch the yacht I am now a little apprehensive about possible leaks.
But all my bilge pumps are electric I'm now thinking of adding a substantial manual pump. But lightning strikes out in the open ocean are relatively rare.
World Lightning Strikes Map

 

[fisherman]

I had a blocking diode between the start and service batteries, so one could not discharge via the other.
An engine driven pump is normal fit on FVs. Manual clutch, needs regular adjusting. Electric clutch, fails if electrics fail or water gets too deep, and the latter will stymie the belt drive in either case. It requires a PTO shaft, which means the pump belt has to come off for alternator belt change.

 

[Daydream believer]

The best place for an engine instrument panel is just inside the cokpit, not outside. Same for engine alarm buzzer.

If they are in the cockpit, surely that is "outside"
Unless one has one of those motorsailer thingies.

 

[TNLI]

If they are in the cockpit, surely that is "outside"
Unless one has one of those motorsailer thingies.

For cockpit read cabin, for cabin read cockpit, just inside so easy to reach or see from both areas.

 

[TNLI]

Well I have lightning protection but as I'm about to launch the yacht I am now a little apprehensive about possible leaks.
But all my bilge pumps are electric I'm now thinking of adding a substantial manual pump. But lightning strikes out in the open ocean are relatively rare.
World Lightning Strikes Map

Alas for boats based in the tropics they are not so rare, I can recall 7 boats that were transiting between Suva Bay and Vunda Point in Fiji that were caught out by an unforecase tropical low pressure forming over the island getting struck in less than the 2 days it took for the yachts moving West to a safe marina for the typhoon season. Some finished the trip and some turned back to make repairs in Suva. I finished the trip but was lucky not to get struck as there was an incredibly amount of lightning during the first night. All the boats that were struck were plastic and did not have a real good mast top lightning rod above their VHF, total electronic wipe out in most cases.

I thought that all boats needed a manual bilge pump system to pass a survey or manfacturing approval like Llyds or ABS ??

 

[Daydream believer]

For cockpit read cabin, for cabin read cockpit, just inside so easy to reach or see from both areas.

So you expect me to leave the helm,I cannot reach inside the cabin from the helm You want me to go below to start the engine? Nowhere else to fit the panel. In fact I have no idea where else I would fit it & if it was below I could not see oil pressure , charge, or rev counter. I want it next to where I am . In the cockpit. Not out of sight & out of reach. That would be silly.

 

[vyv_cox]

So you expect me to leave the helm,I cannot reach inside the cabin from the helm You want me to go below to start the engine? Nowhere else to fit the panel. In fact I have no idea where else I would fit it & if it was below I could not see oil pressure , charge, or rev counter. I want it next to where I am . In the cockpit. Not out of sight & out of reach. That would be silly.

What you say is true but it is exactly how my boat was built (Sadler 34). It had no rev counter as built although I fitted one outside in the cockpit . I need to lean, or go, inside the saloon to start the engine and see any gauges and warning lights.