Bilge pump question

geem

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I'm all in favour of a bilge alarm, but chary about automatic bilge pumps. I used to winter in the Caledonian Canal, and a neighbouring boat developed a leaking fuel tank, so her automatic bilge pump duly pumped about 200 gallons of diesel into the canal. 🙄
My fuel tank is below the cabin sole. Grp and built into the boat. No drain on tank. Pipes are top connected so no leaks. He tanks are structural. Can't say a leak would never happen but vastly reduced risk
 

geem

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Despite the perceived advantages of electric bilge pumps there could well be a time that you will be very grateful for a manual one that can be operated for long periods. You might find this article interesting Emergency bilge pump
I had a look at your article. The set up you had is vastly different to mine.
The main emergency pump below the saloon floor is a 3500gph. The main sump pump unde the saloon is a 2500gph unit and another is installed for the shower pump. The engine room has a 1200gph. These are all US gallons. In addition there is a roving electric pump that can be plugged in to pump from anywhere with a long 1" hose to the cockpit or through an opening portlight. They are all good quality Rule pumps that work well with independent float switches. The great thing about the main sump pump and the shower pump is they are in regular use so get tested. The engine room pump and emergency pump need testing every few weeks. I have to remember to do it
 

oldmanofthehills

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Having had a semi-detached stern tube that only made itself known half way across the irish sea, I am utterly in love with self contained auto bilge pumps. Needed to pump about 2 gallons an hour and we just checked every hour or so to make sure nothing clogged. Sure beat getting in each others way working the manual thing and a lot less tiring. That was a Rule 750 which at 750GPH could have coped which a much greater leak, indeed quite a big hole. The manual over-ride becomes live if pumping and is used to feed LED warning light on console. I used LED switch thus can also drive it in manual if auto fails. I estimated it would flatten battery in about 2 weeks on mooring as a bit less leak when stationary.

Once we got to semi civilisation I bought a flat ato whale pump as backup, running from the third battery so I could leave boat on mooring unattended before liftout with only minor fretting.

Sadly something like a lightning strike killed both pumps on the mooring, plus the ECU of the Eberspacher heater. (Nothing else connected to batteries on mooring so happily radio and plotter unharmed). My replacement bilge pump arrived this afternoon £90, unlike my £700 for heater repair. Both will be fitted this Saturday, however even the latter is less than the £2000 to replace and bond in the stern tube
 

Gsailor

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Our boat (38' Aquastar) apparently has two electric and one manual bilge pump. The electric ones don't work, I flick the switch, I can hear a relay making contact but no pump comes on, the manual pump has a 2" hose and takes so much effort to operate that if I did need it in anger, I would die from exhaustion before drowning!

I have just pumped about 25 gallons of fresh water out of the keel void so the bilge pumps have now moved up on my priority list!

So, my plan is to fit two new bilge pumps, both on float switches but what capacity?
You cannot have too many pumps.

I started on a 20 foot cruiser and was a cautious ( some may call me OTT) sailor in shoal waters often with hard sharp bits of seabed.

I had two manual pumps, one auto, two other electric and a separate battery to be used as and when where and when.

I had manual over-ride and electronic auto switching - I read poor reports of float switches.

Never needed them, but that is preparation I suppose.
 

oldmanofthehills

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You cannot have too many pumps.

I started on a 20 foot cruiser and was a cautious ( some may call me OTT) sailor in shoal waters often with hard sharp bits of seabed.

I had two manual pumps, one auto, two other electric and a separate battery to be used as and when where and when.

I had manual over-ride and electronic auto switching - I read poor reports of float switches.

Never needed them, but that is preparation I suppose.
I had no end of trouble with float switches on earlier boats. Debris in bilge can shift and block them - mostly causing them to flatten battery or burnout by never turning off. Or the float switch can move from its fixing and thus rise above sensible sump level.

In built sensors much better and whole kit sunk by its own weight in the sump. The early whale ones annoyingly ran pump momentarily ever 10 minutes slightly disturbing my sleep but I have no such issue with current whale or rule
 

geem

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I had no end of trouble with float switches on earlier boats. Debris in bilge can shift and block them - mostly causing them to flatten battery or burnout by never turning off. Or the float switch can move from its fixing and thus rise above sensible sump level.

In built sensors much better and whole kit sunk by its own weight in the sump. The early whale ones annoyingly ran pump momentarily ever 10 minutes slightly disturbing my sleep but I have no such issue with current whale or rule
Inbuilt float switches are no better in my experience. They are still prone to debris and possibly more so as they are effectively in a cage. With a tiny gap between the float and the cage. Anything in there stops the rise and fall of the float. When the float fails you then need to install an external float anyway.
Never had a float come of its fixing. How does that happen?
 

oldmanofthehills

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Inbuilt float switches are no better in my experience. They are still prone to debris and possibly more so as they are effectively in a cage. With a tiny gap between the float and the cage. Anything in there stops the rise and fall of the float. When the float fails you then need to install an external float anyway.
Never had a float come of its fixing. How does that happen?
Not familiar with in built floats, both the whale and rule auto bilge pumps use water proximity sensing electronics - presumably just a conductivity check, and the bolt on rule sensor is the same. I imagine an enclosed float is less vulnerable to big debris as cannot get through strainer but trapped in proximity to small debris.

As to float coming adrift, well that was due to difficulty in bonding in a damp bilge and my unwillingness to drill screw holes through my thin hull
 

Daydream believer

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With regard to manual pumps.
My Hanse has a manual Plastimo pump by the helm seat. That seemed a good idea when I bought the boat & the position is great. However, The handle is a retractable one. When, one day I thought that I had a gas leak I decided to pump for 20 mins to remove any gas in the bilges. Seemed like a plan

It was then that I realised that the stupid handle has sharp edges because it is designed for looks, not use. I had to wear a glove to use it. Even then it soon became painful. To this day I have never had to use either the electric or the manual pump to remove water from my bilges. I have a wandering hose fitted to the shower pump which does the job very well & removes almost every drop down to "sponging" level.

My first boat had an open cockpit & when caught in an F9 in the N sea I had to pump every 20 minutes as the bilges kept filling as seas broke over the boat. I had fitted a Henderson with a long round handle & found no issues whatsoever. It had a cover on the front with a quick release bar & it could be un clogged in seconds- It happened once when a lolly pop stick became lodged in the flap valve. dead easy to sort.
My existing one would be impossible to unblock.

If going seriously offshore, I would look closely at the sighting & design of the manual pump. Quantity might be important, but effort to use & maintenance in use, along with effort required is, in my book, every bit as important. I would go for less volume delivered if it meant I could pump easier, for longer.

As for electric pumps, I might ask if the current drain varies between manufacturers. It is OK talking up the volumes- My pump is bigger than yours. But if a particular pump draws the current inefficiently then surely, that is not so good if the batteries are flat. Clearly moving water has an energy requirement & working out the exit system for that water, then the most efficient pump to meet that, must come into the equation.
Or is all that irrelevant on a typical private yacht?
 

TNLI

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Our boat (38' Aquastar) apparently has two electric and one manual bilge pump. The electric ones don't work, I flick the switch, I can hear a relay making contact but no pump comes on, the manual pump has a 2" hose and takes so much effort to operate that if I did need it in anger, I would die from exhaustion before drowning!
I have just pumped about 25 gallons of fresh water out of the keel void so the bilge pumps have now moved up on my priority list!
So, my plan is to fit two new bilge pumps, both on float switches but what capacity?

First of all it's good news to have 2 bilge pumps and fit 2 of the biggest pumps that will fit in the space available and not set fire to the wiring. No one with a leak ever said their bilge pumps were too small.

Try and wire the 2 pumps to 2 different bateries. My lifeboat has dual start and dual house batteries, so 6 bilge pumps in 3 diferent watertight compartment, plus 3 manual pumps. Each area has it's own high water alarm sensor with a loud intermittent buzzer and light near my roll over and pitch pole proof berth. The 2 engine bay and shaft area pumps are wired directly to the 2 start batteries. The other are wired to one of the 2 house batteries.

Make sure to fit a good high water alarm switch just above the pumps internal sensor. High water alarms are very important as it's much more difficult to find a leak when it's already below the water, and fit a real loud alarm AND red light.

Make sure the outlet is just above the waterline and there will be a need for a loop that is well above the waterline in most cases.

Finally carry a good bucket, as not many pumps can beat a scared lunatic with a bucket!
 

fisherman

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I used to rely on Patay pumps, cheaper and IMO better than others, from these people.
Shop for Pumps, Spares and Accessories | Pump International

They also sold me the Johnson electric pumps, which I also found good, and long lasting. I hate having float switches in the bilge running the pump, only used them for the alarms, they don't like all the pump current flowing through them. Using a relay is a better option.
 

TNLI

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Just mount the p
Not familiar with in built floats, both the whale and rule auto bilge pumps use water proximity sensing electronics - presumably just a conductivity check, and the bolt on rule sensor is the same. I imagine an enclosed float is less vulnerable to big debris as cannot get through strainer but trapped in proximity to small debris.

As to float coming adrift, well that was due to difficulty in bonding in a damp bilge and my unwillingness to drill screw holes through my thin hull
Just mount the pump on a thin section of harwood, prerably teak or mahogony, and then screw the filter section, (My pumps have built in sensors), to the wood, although in many cases the pumps cab belft free standing. Whale and rule are both kind of expensive, and I carry spare pumps.

12V/1100GPH Automatic Submersible Boat Bilge Water Pump with Auto Float Switch | eBay
 

TNLI

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My fuel tank is below the cabin sole. Grp and built into the boat. No drain on tank. Pipes are top connected so no leaks. He tanks are structural. Can't say a leak would never happen but vastly reduced risk
Never sleep with a generator or main diesel running, as both have fuel returns lines that can fail, as they are a main cause of fuel in the bilges incidents. Wire the blige pumps off switch to its own fuse and and have a different switch for the alarms.
It's not so bad an idea to store extra fuel cans on deck in normal weather.
 

geem

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Never sleep with a generator or main diesel running, as both have fuel returns lines that can fail, as they are a main cause of fuel in the bilges incidents. Wire the blige pumps off switch to its own fuse and and have a different switch for the alarms.
It's not so bad an idea to store extra fuel cans on deck in normal weather.
On long passages how do you not sleep without the engine running if there is no wind?
My alarm is on the same circuit as the main sump bilge pump. It isn't a high level alarm it's a pump run alarm. If it keeps running the alarm stays on. It's the only way to wire an alarm to a bilge pump in my opinion. By the time you have a high level alarm activation it's too late. I have a seperate manual switch for the main bilge pump so I can override the float switch if it fails. Nothing needs changing on my system. I don't carry diesel on deck as i have a 500 litre tank. The risk of losing diesel from my fuel tank is minimal compared to a steel or bag tank.
 

geem

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With regard to manual pumps.
My Hanse has a manual Plastimo pump by the helm seat. That seemed a good idea when I bought the boat & the position is great. However, The handle is a retractable one. When, one day I thought that I had a gas leak I decided to pump for 20 mins to remove any gas in the bilges. Seemed like a plan

It was then that I realised that the stupid handle has sharp edges because it is designed for looks, not use. I had to wear a glove to use it. Even then it soon became painful. To this day I have never had to use either the electric or the manual pump to remove water from my bilges. I have a wandering hose fitted to the shower pump which does the job very well & removes almost every drop down to "sponging" level.

My first boat had an open cockpit & when caught in an F9 in the N sea I had to pump every 20 minutes as the bilges kept filling as seas broke over the boat. I had fitted a Henderson with a long round handle & found no issues whatsoever. It had a cover on the front with a quick release bar & it could be un clogged in seconds- It happened once when a lolly pop stick became lodged in the flap valve. dead easy to sort.
My existing one would be impossible to unblock.

If going seriously offshore, I would look closely at the sighting & design of the manual pump. Quantity might be important, but effort to use & maintenance in use, along with effort required is, in my book, every bit as important. I would go for less volume delivered if it meant I could pump easier, for longer.

As for electric pumps, I might ask if the current drain varies between manufacturers. It is OK talking up the volumes- My pump is bigger than yours. But if a particular pump draws the current inefficiently then surely, that is not so good if the batteries are flat. Clearly moving water has an energy requirement & working out the exit system for that water, then the most efficient pump to meet that, must come into the equation.
Or is all that irrelevant on a typical private yacht?
Saying your battery are flat is like saying your diaphragm in your pump has a hole in it. If you only have one pump your snookered. With a sensible set up you have several electric pumps, how would your batteries get flat? You have an engine with alternator. We also have solar, wind, water charging plus a diesel generator. The engine battery is seperate to the house battery so the engine can start if the house batteries are flat. It can charge the house batteries. The generator has it's own battery. It can charge the house bank. Power consumption of electric pumps is really not relevant. In 12v money we have a 120Ah alternator, up to 200 amps charging on the generator. We liveaboard mostly. At least if a leak occurred when we weren't onboard the pumps will run until the solar can't keep up. Not much happening if you have a manual pump, which we do in the form of Henderson mk5 toilet pumps as a last resort.
 

Daydream believer

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Power consumption of electric pumps is really not relevant.
A Belgian friend of mine was en route from somewhere near Stavanger to Ostend in an identical boat to mine. Single handed. There is not a space for a really large battery bank & the size of boat would not normally warrant it. He went to start the engine to charge the batteries when he realised that he had left the start battery switched to his domestics. He ended up with zero electrics, no nav lights, VHF etc. in a shipping area, at night in zero wind, so his wind steering was useless. He was exhausted.
His hand held battery was flat. He heard a light aircraft overhead, on reconaisance for oil spills. He put out a mayday, but could not get a reply due to flat battery. Fortunately, the plane picked up the call & a coastguard cutter came & towed him 70 miles to port. When I last spoke to him he was waiting for the bill
The point of this is that it is easy to make a mistake & all the alternators in the world will be useless if you cannot start the engine. Waiting for the sun to shine whilst the boat is sinking is NOT the best plan.
Especially at night.
But the Henderson is the best option. However, some may not realise that some of the "decorative" junk like my boat is fitted with, is not the saviour it should be.
Just so long as one is aware. That was my point
 

geem

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A Belgian friend of mine was en route from somewhere near Stavanger to Ostend in an identical boat to mine. Single handed. There is not a space for a really large battery bank & the size of boat would not normally warrant it. He went to start the engine to charge the batteries when he realised that he had left the start battery switched to his domestics. He ended up with zero electrics, no nav lights, VHF etc. in a shipping area, at night in zero wind, so his wind steering was useless. He was exhausted.
His hand held battery was flat. He heard a light aircraft overhead, on reconaisance for oil spills. He put out a mayday, but could not get a reply due to flat battery. Fortunately, the plane picked up the call & a coastguard cutter came & towed him 70 miles to port. When I last spoke to him he was waiting for the bill
The point of this is that it is easy to make a mistake & all the alternators in the world will be useless if you cannot start the engine. Waiting for the sun to shine whilst the boat is sinking is NOT the best plan.
Especially at night.
But the Henderson is the best option. However, some may not realise that some of the "decorative" junk like my boat is fitted with, is not the saviour it should be.
Just so long as one is aware. That was my point
So he had no back up. Not great seamanship. Why did he have a system that allowed him to make that mistake? Its very simple to have two large illuminated LED battery voltage displays near the companionway steps. One for each bank. You don't make that mistake then. If the voltages stay the same, the batteries are combined. When I sail I isolate the engine battery. The engine battery voltage display goes out. Battery isolated. Systems on boats need to be resilient to the 'what if' scenario. Where there is single point of failure comsideratiotn should be given to a back up of some description. A power-packed and jump leads would have got him out of that situation.
 

srm

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My engine start battery is electrically and physically separate from the domestic bank so there is no way that it can be accidentally discharged. Have done this on my last three boats as it seems a bit silly to link them other than through charging circuits. When engine is running starter battery has priority charging.

Regarding emergency bilge pumps this may be of interest if you have an inboard with shaft drive to the prop.
Bilge Pump - Fast Flow Pumps
 

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. When I sail I isolate the engine battery.
So does he & so do I, but he made a mistake. I have in the past as well, I am sure that I am not the only one, especially those with combined 123 switches. . We both have monitors on our domestic bank, but not the starter battery. We cannot see them from the cockpit. You have to remember these are not live aboard boats with loads of stuff wired up all over the place. Most of the time he does club racing with the RNSYC out of Ostend, with an annual cruise. That is the sort of thing many do with smaller AWBs like ours. They are simply not set up for serious offshore blue water sailing. I doubt that many would contemplate Stavanger to Ostend in one leg SH, as part of a normal trip in a 311 for a holiday between work commitments.
So talk of loads of power for electric pumps has to be taken in context with the boat & the set up. That is all I was trying to put over.
He now has a power pack in reserve
Personally, I try not to go below when sailing to look at instruments. I get sea sick in a few minutes. In rough weather, it is difficult to leave the helm anyway.
 

wombat88

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The pumps with built in water proximity sensors don't work if they get covered with a thin film of oil or diesel. as would happen if you had even a small leak or spill.
 
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