Bilge pump question

[TNLI]

Every boa

So you expect me to leave the helm,I cannot reach inside the cabin from the helm You want me to go below to start the engine? Nowhere else to fit the panel. In fact I have no idea where else I would fit it & if it was below I could not see oil pressure , charge, or rev counter. I want it next to where I am . In the cockpit. Not out of sight & out of reach. That would be silly.

Every boat is different in design terms, but it's very easy to fit a small set of gauges, or a secondary control panel like wot the Oysters ave.

 

[Daydream believer]

Every boat is different in design terms, but it's very easy to fit a small set of gauges, or a secondary control panel like wot the Oysters ave.

If there is a secondary control panel , where do they both go then?
By the way, I do not have an Oyster; so I would not know- hence asking

 

[geem]

Great toilet the Lavac, never leave port without one. My one and only Lavac has been converted with a Y valve to divert the intake from the bowl to the bilge. Manual and macerator for reliabilty and reduction in the size of the outlet fittings. It's rare for a production yacht to have a skin fiiting blown out, more common with motor or power boats that do not have a Faraday cage system to a good ground. Luckly my hull is alloy, and the A frame mast bolts directly onto the alloy side beams. If the mast is folded down or removed, I've use right angle plates along the edges that lead to the same beams. Alas the solar panels would get fried, or the HF receivers aft twig will be shattered.

I don't want to get any of my electronics fried, so everthing serious has an alloy case and associated earth wire. All the electrics will have a power plug that is easy to remove, or a double pole switch. Alas I often need to leave my Kenny R-600 on during thunderstorms, so I've fitted surge protectors to both the no 2, (3db stubby outside the cage), VHF and R-600. The HF transceiver, a Kenwood TS-120 with an AT-130 has a double pole power switch and the antenna can be selected to a dummy earth, and along with an earthed steel case, should be OK. I will screen the main wiring looms if the plan to hide them under the main alloy beams against the hull is rejected by the inspector. No electrics above the top of the A frame, as they are real bad news if struck. Handheld VHF and GPS in alloy bag inside grab bag.

Skin fittings do blow out. My friends lived in Florida and the Bahamas for many years where lightning storms are far more frequent and aggressive than we see in the UK. He was sailing a 20 ft boat off Florida when he was hit by lightning. It blew out a bronze skin fitting. The boat sank. Part of the problem on a small boat is they have the same size skin fittings as large volume boats but the water inflow sinks the small boat pretty quickly. He wasn't able to plug the hole.

 

[TNLI]

If a boat has not been designed in structual terms with a base plate on the bottom of the keel, a bobstay connecting the forestay to the waterline, or long external chain plates, then you should dangle a short length of chain or cable from the backstay into the water, othewise the lightning bolt will look for the nearest earth that doesnot involve turning a corner. Alas for some that can be a metal thru hull.

Every thru hull should have a matching pine plug tied to it, both for a potential lightning issue, but also in case a collision or grounding punches out the thru hull after dragging along the hull. Rare with a bronze or stainless thru hulls, but does happen to cheap plastic ones. Small boats are harder to sink cos of the lower darught that results in a slower inflow rate for a given size of hole. The draught of my boat fully loaded should be around 1 meter, as it's a light alloy hull with an almost flat bottom.

 

[TNLI]

If there is a secondary control panel , where do they both go then?
By the way, I do not have an Oyster; so I would not know- hence asking

One near the pedastal or closr a pratical to whhel or tillerr and the other inside the cabin, often near the chart table.

 

[geem]

If a boat has not been designed in structual terms with a base plate on the bottom of the keel, a bobstay connecting the forestay to the waterline, or long external chain plates, then you should dangle a short length of chain or cable from the backstay into the water, othewise the lightning bolt will look for the nearest earth that doesnot involve turning a corner. Alas for some that can be a metal thru hull.

Every thru hull should have a matching pine plug tied to it, both for a potential lightning issue, but also in case a collision or grounding punches out the thru hull after dragging along the hull. Rare with a bronze or stainless thru hulls, but does happen to cheap plastic ones. Small boats are harder to sink cos of the lower darught that results in a slower inflow rate for a given size of hole. The draught of my boat fully loaded should be around 1 meter, as it's a light alloy hull with an almost flat bottom.

Plastic through hulls are not cheap. They cost the same as bronze but being made of very similar material to the hull they are no more likely to suffer lightning damage. They don't suffer corrosion.
Smaller boats sinks fast because they have a tiny fraction of thr hull volume of a larger boat. Volume is exponential as length goes up. Sure the seacock may not be as deep but sink outlets don't need to be deep regardless of size of boat. Lightning wants to escape to the sea surface so the shallower seacocks are likely more at risk.
Running chain over the side to dissipate lightning is a myth. The high electrical resistance of chain is unlikely to provide a route for several million volts of a lightning strike. The lightning will make the easiest route it can. Boats hit in Florida have had holes punched in the hull at the waterline. The mast and supporting mast post provide the largest conductor but the lightning strike at the mast top will likely try to dissipate down all the rigging simultaneously.

 

[Daydream believer]

..

One near the pedastal or closr a pratical to whhel or tillerr and the other inside the cabin, often near the chart table.

But you said
as the best place for the engine panel is just inside the cabin, so you can access it from the cockpit or below.
Ref#52
Then
The best place for an engine instrument panel is just inside the cokpit( You amended to cabin), not outside. Same for engine alarm buzzer. Refer #46
Then you said
but it's very easy to fit a small set of gauges, or a secondary control panel like wot the Oysters ave.
Ref #61

Now you are advocating (#65) it is Ok to put one in the cockpit. Make your mind up

 

[vyv_cox]

Running chain over the side to dissipate lightning is a myth. The high electrical resistance of chain is unlikely to provide a route for several million volts of a lightning strike. The lightning will make the easiest route it can.

Absolutely true. When researching a PBO article on the subject a couple of years ago I looked at scientific papers from Florida, Australia and New Zealand. It is an amazingly complex topic in which almost everything that seems intuitive is incorrect

 

[geem]

Absolutely true. When researching a PBO article on the subject a couple of years ago I looked at scientific papers from Florida, Australia and New Zealand. It is an amazingly complex topic in which almost everything that seems intuitive is incorrect

Agreed. We used to use specialists to design lightning protection systems for buildings. It's a very complicated subject

 

[roaringgirl]

We only have 1 electric auto/manual bilge pump and 2 manuals

We also have a tee and valve plumbed into the engine raw water intake so it can suck from the bilge if required. This way we have a mechanical, diesel-driven bilge pump that will run as long as we have fuel.

 

[TNLI]

..

But you said
as the best place for the engine panel is just inside the cabin, so you can access it from the cockpit or below.
Ref#52
Then
The best place for an engine instrument panel is just inside the cokpit( You amended to cabin), not outside. Same for engine alarm buzzer. Refer #46
Then you said
but it's very easy to fit a small set of gauges, or a secondary control panel like wot the Oysters ave.
Ref #61

Now you are advocating (#65) it is Ok to put one in the cockpit. Make your mind up

It just depends on what you want to do, I'm just pointing out that quite a number of larger boats have dual control panels and even dual morse controls. You can really order or fit what you like, just DYOR and see what is available. With the latest Beta there is even an option for a WiFi instrument dsplay so you can see the engine instruments from any position in the boat, even sitting on the head. The idea of a fixed steering station has gone a long time ago, so I'm fitting a tillerpilot with a plug in handheld unit, that way I don't have to get out of my bunk to alter course.
I will make this my last reply as I suspect you might be a compulsive nit picker, also we are getting way off topic from bilge pumps.

 

[TNLI]

Plastic through hulls are not cheap. They cost the same as bronze but being made of very similar material to the hull they are no more likely to suffer lightning damage. They don't suffer corrosion.
Smaller boats sinks fast because they have a tiny fraction of thr hull volume of a larger boat. Volume is exponential as length goes up. Sure the seacock may not be as deep but sink outlets don't need to be deep regardless of size of boat. Lightning wants to escape to the sea surface so the shallower seacocks are likely more at risk.
Running chain over the side to dissipate lightning is a myth. The high electrical resistance of chain is unlikely to provide a route for several million volts of a lightning strike. The lightning will make the easiest route it can. Boats hit in Florida have had holes punched in the hull at the waterline. The mast and supporting mast post provide the largest conductor but the lightning strike at the mast top will likely try to dissipate down all the rigging simultaneously.

Using chain is not a myth and a lot of old timers do just that off the backstay. Perhaps you need to read the PBO article mentioning chain.
Lightning strikes at sea – advice from a marine surveyor - Practical Boat Owner (pbo.co.uk)

Why lightning strikes cause so much damage and how to protect against them (yachtingworld.com)

Sailboat and Yacht Lightning Protection (mto.com.tr)

Note: If you use a smaller VHF antenna and Nav light on top of the mast, it should be possible to use the windex as a lightning rod. It's bad news to get the VHF or NAV light struck.

 

[geem]

Using chain is not a myth and a lot of old timers do just that off the backstay. Perhaps you need to read the PBO article mentioning chain.
Lightning strikes at sea – advice from a marine surveyor - Practical Boat Owner (pbo.co.uk)

Why lightning strikes cause so much damage and how to protect against them (yachtingworld.com)

Sailboat and Yacht Lightning Protection (mto.com.tr)

It's a myth. Is has very poor electrical conductivity. Do you believe everything you read in the papers? See post#68

 

[TNLI]

It's a myth. Is has very poor electrical conductivity. Do you believe everything you read in the papers? See post#68

OFF TOPIC
Lightning follows the path associated with the least resistance in charge terms from the ground up. That's not the same as the path of least resistance in ohms. Stainless for example is not much different to chain links and the more important thing is that it does not like turning. There is a faractional improvment if you use battery type cables although the wires in the ground plate clip on kits are not that thick. A lightning bolt bounces along the surface anyway, so it ignores the actual chain or cable in direct current flow terms. In realty it would not make any difference which cable or chain you use and YM who mentioned using a stern anchor on a chain are going a bit OTT. If the cable is too thin the only issue is a potential side flash to another conductor, only there isn't one. The most important part is to keep the ground chain, wire, cable straight in terms of the connection from the rig to the water.

 

[TNLI]

But it is electronic so it will still fail

Anything can fail, and in installation terms the bilge pump and float switch, (If you must spend more money and use up more space with 2 parts and not one), should sit on an aluminium plate to prevent electrolysis risk if there is a slight hole or crack in the wiring to the pump or float switch. A sensible cruiser will carry a spare pump, a spare float alarm and buzzer. If your off course, engine alarm or radar guard zone alarm sound similar, either change one ot even 2 of the Piezzo buzzers so they all sound different, OR fit a bright colored light. Nothing worse than looking for a leak whilst the engine gets fried. Donald Crowhurst who lost his life in the South Atlantic during a round the wold race, complained that he had far too many alarms and got them all mixed up. Donald was a great sailor who got himself into what he thought was a hopeless financial position that would have got any singlehanded sailor depressed.

 

[geem]

Anything can fail, and in installation terms the bilge pump and float switch, (If you must spend more money and use up more space with 2 parts and not one), should sit on an aluminium plate to prevent electrolysis risk if there is a slight hole or crack in the wiring to the pump or float switch. A sensible cruiser will carry a spare pump, a spare float alarm and buzzer. If your off course, engine alarm or radar guard zone alarm sound similar, either change one ot even 2 of the Piezzo buzzers so they all sound different, OR fit a bright colored light. Nothing worse than looking for a leak whilst the engine gets fried. Donald Crowhurst who lost his life in the South Atlantic during a round the wold race, complained that he had far too many alarms and got them all mixed up. Donald was a great sailor who got himself into what he thought was a hopeless financial position that would have got any singlehanded sailor depressed.

You do talk nonsense

 

[justanothersailboat]

What I don't understand with lightning is frequency. Clearly there's a crazy amount of energy in it and it can bust holes in just about anything, it's not all that rare, but my boat lives on her mooring through any amount of storms when I'm not there and so do many others and it's not very common to come back and find lightning damage. (fingers crossed!). Is being moored by a couple of damp artificial ropes really protective? The switches may be off but isn't lightning high enough voltage to jump right through the switch gaps? It's quite mysterious to me.

 

[coopec]

What I don't understand with lightning is frequency. Clearly there's a crazy amount of energy in it and it can bust holes in just about anything, it's not all that rare, but my boat lives on her mooring through any amount of storms when I'm not there and so do many others and it's not very common to come back and find lightning damage. (fingers crossed!). Is being moored by a couple of damp artificial ropes really protective? The switches may be off but isn't lightning high enough voltage to jump right through the switch gaps? It's quite mysterious to me.

Have a look at this
Is Lightning Protection worthwhile?

 

[justanothersailboat]

Have a look at this
Is Lightning Protection worthwhile?

Am I in the wrong thread? it's entirely possible, sorry. Thanks for the link.

 

[fisherman]

Wasn't there an instance of lightning blowing a hole in the anchor locker, out through the hull?
Googling for info gets a ycht insurance site, for some reason.....