Bilge keel performance design

[lw395]

As a yoof I did quite a lot of my early yacht sailing on the RYA's Sonata and Duette fleets.
The Duette is a fine enough boat to sail, just a bit small.
I learned that drying out a twin keel boat is not entirely lacking in possibilities for mishap.
We spent a night or two with one keel buried, or comically 'nose down'....
Not sure about 'performance twins' seems like twice the structure, or twice the 'Cheeki Rafiki potential' particular as grounding a twin keel boat is kind of implicit.

Deep twin keels seems like a dog's breakfast tbh, the idea is to be near the beach when you ground IMHO.
I've heard it said that twin fins is a great idea, so long as it comes with twin rudders, twin hulls....
A cat that will take the ground is a very useful boat for some people in some places....

The other option is a medium-long keel and drying out legs, which seems equally ignored by the AWB market.

 

[Tranona]

The other option is a medium-long keel and drying out legs, which seems equally ignored by the AWB market.

Common with the Beneteaus and Jeanneaus which have long shallow keels (some with wings) with centreboards and twin rudders that use legs to dry out in tidal harbours in France. Not popular here, although a Jeanneau centreboard was on my short list for my new boat, until I discovered it added over £10k to the cost. To big a premium for something that might be nice to have, but would rarely use. So my compromise, to enable me to safely go round most of Poole Harbour was the shallow 1.5m keel that was available on all my short list boats, Still managed to clip the mud short tacking down the harbour last week!

 

[Greenheart]

Strange...the styling of the big RM typifies much that I like least about modern yachts...but bizarrely, her twin keels give her substantial appeal to my eyes. I could live with that!

Pity there's no wheelhouse.

 

[Tranona]

You might find the earlier models a bit more to your liking. Same keels but less extreme hull shape. The old 1050 is particularly attractive. Last one built is for sale on the RM site for a mere 145000 euros!

 

[Sybarite]

The French architect, Michel Joubert, chose a bilge keeler for his own 53' boat.

http://fra.sika.com/dms/getdocument..._presse_neptune_yachting_moteur_mars_2014.pdf

So did J-P Brouns for his own boat.

 

[Birdseye]

Plenty of demand for old twin keelers for £20 or £30k - zero for £100k, which is just about the lowest price for a new 30+' boat.

Ability to use a drying mooring does not figure on most new boat buyers list of must haves, and shallow draft is catered for with many boats being offered with shallow draft keels and some drop keels.

Twin keels are a peculiar UK phenomenon from the time when three factors influenced the market. First, the dominance of shallow and drying moorings, second n explosion in boat buying and third the introduction of GRP which made twin keels easier to build.

That lasted for about 15 years and all the builders who majored on twin keels rapidly brought in single keel versions or new designs. Why? Marinas, deep water moorings, wider cruising horizons and better performance. No twin keel boats have been built in any quantities in the last 25 years. That is telling us something.

Agree about Legend - but their (largely correct) analysis was that performance was low on the list of priorities in the old twin keel designs, so what was missing on the market was a staid, large volume boat, sort of Macwester on steroids. They were wrong.

Thats essentially a chicken and egg response. Which comes first - the lack of sales of bilge keelers or the lack of availability of bilge keelers? We have got to a situation now whereby marina moorings for deep fins are silly expensive with very few new berths being added so the price of a fin keel berth is only going to go one way. We've seen this on the near continent which started with berth prices way below our and are now passing us and in some areas way more than UK levels. The only way round this is the use of more drying moorings and harbours. I do know where you sail from but even on the south coast of the UK the places you can visit are severely limited if you cant dry and where I sail in the bristol channel the large majority of moorings are drying.

The real puzzle to me is why builders make drop keel boats rather than bilge. A drop keel is useless for a drying mooring, its sailing performance is limited by tenderness, and the darfat advantage is very little - how often are you sailing in water between 4 ft and 6 ft deep?

 

[Tranona]

Thats essentially a chicken and egg response. Which comes first - the lack of sales of bilge keelers or the lack of availability of bilge keelers? We have got to a situation now whereby marina moorings for deep fins are silly expensive with very few new berths being added so the price of a fin keel berth is only going to go one way. We've seen this on the near continent which started with berth prices way below our and are now passing us and in some areas way more than UK levels. The only way round this is the use of more drying moorings and harbours. I do know where you sail from but even on the south coast of the UK the places you can visit are severely limited if you cant dry and where I sail in the bristol channel the large majority of moorings are drying.

The real puzzle to me is why builders make drop keel boats rather than bilge. A drop keel is useless for a drying mooring, its sailing performance is limited by tenderness, and the darfat advantage is very little - how often are you sailing in water between 4 ft and 6 ft deep?

Sorry that you cannot see new boat buyers are not interested in twin keel boats - at least for the reasons you state. Buyers in the UK fell out of love with them over 25 years ago, partly because of the increase in typical boat size, partly the growth in marina berths, partly the change in cruising patterns, and partly the recognition of the limitations from a performance point of view.

Why do some builders offer lifting keels? Pretty obvious because there is a demand. It may not suit your needs (nor did it suit mine as I explained earlier), but in other parts of the world and to an extent in the UK there is a viable demand. And of course we have the recent example of Legend who spent a fortune tooling up to meet what they saw as a gap in the market (simple twin keel cruising boats at prices competitive with fin keel boats) and fail. The gap simply did not exist. Bit like the much discussed GT 35 - surely there must be a market for a modern version of a Starlight? Not so, much as the armchair sages would like to think there is, turns out there is not.

 

[Greenheart]

Whatever the reasons, I'm glad I'm not the only one who regrets the passing of the popularity of bilge keels.

Sorry that you cannot see new boat buyers are not interested in twin keel boats - at least for the reasons you state. Buyers in the UK fell out of love with them partly because of the increase in typical boat size, partly the growth in marina berths, partly the change in cruising patterns, and partly the limitations from a performance point of view.

I don't deny you must be right, but I'm still mystified by the fact. Presumably the growth in marina berths and the "change in cruising patterns" are actually the same thing?

So in fact, average folk who might have waited for the tide to move their yacht off its scenic drying mooring to sail down the coast to a drying destination just as natural and interesting, those same people today step aboard their fin-keeler at its £150 per ft/per annum marina at any state of tide and enjoy its upwind power, all the way to...another identical marina, just as expensive and artificial as a shopping mall, just like the one they left that morning. I'll just have to continue finding it inexplicable that they do so by choice.

Actually I'm really not interesting in arguing - the more fin keelers there are in their crowded marinas, the more beautiful the drying harbours will be for the few that can visit them.

And I had a look at the Legend site...it seems they're still building twin keelers in various sizes, right up to 40ft! Now, that's an AWB I might like to own. The first. :encouragement:

http://www.legendyachtsuk.co.uk/#!legend-yachts-40/c1sxi

 

[Birdseye]

You might until you looked under the skin at the build quality. Americans seem to build things to two distinct standards. Very high and expensive or very low and very cheap.

 

[Greenheart]

Ah. I did try to winkle-out what's wrong with them, earlier in the thread, but I might have guessed.

 

[Tranona]

Whatever the reasons, I'm glad I'm not the only one who regrets the passing of the popularity of bilge keels.



I don't deny you must be right, but I'm still mystified by the fact. Presumably the growth in marina berths and the "change in cruising patterns" are actually the same thing?

So in fact, average folk who might have waited for the tide to move their yacht off its scenic drying mooring to sail down the coast to a drying destination just as natural and interesting, those same people today step aboard their fin-keeler at its £150 per ft/per annum marina at any state of tide and enjoy its upwind power, all the way to...another identical marina, just as expensive and artificial as a shopping mall, just like the one they left that morning. I'll just have to continue finding it inexplicable that they do so by choice.

Actually I'm really not interesting in arguing - the more fin keelers there are in their crowded marinas, the more beautiful the drying harbours will be for the few that can visit them.

And I had a look at the Legend site...it seems they're still building twin keelers in various sizes, right up to 40ft! Now, that's an AWB I might like to own. The first. :encouragement:

http://www.legendyachtsuk.co.uk/#!legend-yachts-40/c1sxi

You have described the changes well. Things have moved on from the days when I started (with a bilge keel 19', and then a triple keel Eventide) and going up creeks or drying on the sand so the children could play was part of it. Then I (like so many others discovered the delights of cruising - popping over to Cherbourg or the Channel Islands etc. So much so that I actually removed the bilge plates from my Eventide and deepened the keel to improve its performance at sea. Then like many others, of course discovered the Med and chartering, but could just as easily been cruiser racing and the attractions of creek crawling went in the memory bank. As is often stated here the entry into sailing now is very different from 30 or 40 years ago and the bottom rung has disappeared. Of course there are still people who enjoy that type of sailing, but why should they buy new boats when there is a plentiful supply of capable used ones at a fraction of the price?

As to Legend - this range of boats is new from a new company - the original Hunter Legend closed its European operation several years ago and then went bust. They are responding to the gap that birdseye believes is there for a modern twin keeler. However, apart from the keels the boat is very US orientated and poorly packaged for European tastes. They will have to overcome the poor reputation for build quality of the predecessor company, particularly as the one I looked at (the 33) is over 40% more than the similar boat that I bought. Not sure they will meet with much success here if that boat is typical of their range.

 

[Sybarite]

D

No. I'd be interested in knowing myself since I fancy changing boat and would like a newish bilge keeler. I really cannot understand why the mass manufacturers arent making bilgies - there are lots of drying moorings and shallow creeks almost everywhere in the world, and in some areas like the Bristol channel or the east coast UK, a deep fin is a real PITA.

Herés a post from a couple of years ago: (some links may now be broken):

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Several French builders: Allures, Feeling & Ovnin, make lifting keel boats; clearly the solution in that country.
Twin keel builders are alive and well too!

http://www.google.fr/search?aq=&hl=f...F7Ck0AW-8YCADw
http://www.plasmor.fr/fr/photos-voil...skell/195.html
http://www.bord-a-bord-boat.com/IROI...-BIQUILLE.html
http://www.leboncoin.fr/nautisme/428135400.htm?ca=12_s
http://www.topannonces.fr/annonce-vo...v11347119.html
http://www.leboncoin.fr/nautisme/422653407.htm?ca=12_s
http://www.rm-yachts.com/contenu/,le_concept,2?chglg=en
http://www.heolyachts.com/Heol-English-2.html
http://www.chantier-cnti.com/
http://www.wrightonyachts.com/en/
http://www.mayrik.com/Voiliersfr.htm
http://www.lerouge-yachts.com/mono_TKS.htm
http://hreko.com/concept/
http://www.ocqueteau.com/index.php?L=boat&type=Tilapia
http://www.brouns.fr/bateauxcom.htm
http://www.meta-chantier-naval.fr/IM...menagts_A4.pdf

Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...ps-Used-Prices-High-Maybe#8fG2VEyCCkWhrvf2.99

 

[Habebty]

I own a good twin keel boat, a Sadler 290, from new since 2004. The thing is, because of the performance, I don't think of it as a twin keel boat, but as a fin keel boat that won't fall over when the tide goes out (in sensible use )
The reason for this is that it sails as well as most fin keel boats and by experience better than some fin keel boats. One or two forumites will attest to this after some fun races
The market for twin keel boats would pick up here if people realised, like the French, that performance need not be compromised by having an extra keel. With a good designer, why have just one keel when you can have two?

 

[Greenheart]

The market for twin keel boats would pick up here if people realised, like the French, that performance need not be compromised by having an extra keel...with a good designer

I believe that is the truth...but there's a tendency towards turgid conservatism amongst sailors - I know, I'm one of the worst. I expect twin keels, however slick, will retain the grubby green bilgey reputation of lacklustre 1970s bathtubs for many years ahead.

And when marinas, despite their innumerable downsides (to my eyes) offer fin-keeler owners a secure, 'sociable', storage and rapid, no-effort, dry-shod boarding & landings, it's not surprising that yachts which can't really cope without an artificial zone at home and at journey's end, continue to dominate sales on the promise of a fairly meagre performance advantage...

...I wish Legend Yachts luck with their twin-keel sales, whatever the downsides in their production values. I only realised this week that almost all my dislike for Average White Boats, stems from their keels' impracticality for the type of coastal exploring I like most.

Plus the god-awful styling......but if more AWB builders offered twin keelers, they'd be styled that way too...

 

[lw395]

..... I only realised this week that almost all my dislike for Average White Boats, stems from their keels' impracticality for the type of coastal exploring I like most.

Plus the god-awful styling......but if more AWB builders offered twin keelers, they'd be styled that way too...

The AWB is limited for coastal exploration mostly by its draft, not its inability to stand on its keel.
The performance twin keels have the same limitation, because they have the same fundamental need for draft to give righting moment (and keels that actually work well for giving 'lift') to give power and performance.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, the performance twin keels have draft similar to the shallow draft fin keel of similar size. The Legend 33 (not really performance orientated) is 1.37m compared with 1.5m for my Bavaria 33. Similar size RM is even deeper.

 

[Habebty]

Yes again, I draw 1.4m but have good performance and can go up creek at high water then park on the sand/mud at low water. Draft is not really the issue, but having the flexibility to park where you want (within reason) when the tide goes out or when I get it wrong.
So the advantage of a good twin keel boat over a fin, is good sailing performance with added parking flexibility.

 

[Greenheart]

Draft is not really the issue, but having the flexibility to park where you want when the tide goes out...

Precisely. I wonder how there can be any disagreement about this? Surely nobody ever bought a bilge keeler in order to have less draft?

The AWB is limited for coastal exploration mostly by its draft, not its inability to stand on its keel.

I always respect your contributions here LW, but I'm unable to understand how you believe that, if you're serious.

If on a spring tide, fin-keelers could glide to the top of any of our heavenly wooded creeks, drop anchor and stay there approximately upright for ten serene hours before moving on, I would long since have set my sights upon one of the breed...

...but those lovely tidal corners are only visitable by fin-keelers for half an hour or so at the top of the flood, which hardly makes the trip worthwhile, especially when getting stuck anywhere en route will likely have the same uncomfortable effect as stopping in the shallows deliberately - a night on her beam-ends.

If I was of a mind to accept that no yacht could dry out without a wall to lean on, I'd want to go the whole distance and enjoy what a deep fin can do. But if (as in the UK) depths in so many of the most appealing places prevent fast free movement such as fin keels excel at, isn't it a fabulous freedom to be able to stop and dry out there instead?

 

[Tranona]

Precisely. I wonder how there can be any disagreement about this? Surely nobody ever bought a bilge keeler in order to have less draft?

Regrettably that was indeed a major selling point of twin keels when they first came in. Many early boats (like my first two) would aim for 2'6" draft on a 26' boat. It was only after people realised the lack of sailing performance that went with shallow keels that draft steadily increased and up to 4' became common for that size boat. The RM 890 twin keel is 1.5m draft - same as my much bigger boat.

Think you have to accept that people buying new cruising boats, most of which are over 30' do not in general creek crawl - conscious decision when they choose a boat. Plenty of small boats and older boats that are suitable for that. Circular argument again - but that is the choice people make.

 

[Greenheart]

Hmm...but the circular argument is ever-decreasing if it narrows future cruising zones.

I've no doubt you're right - a promise of better performance and the current paucity of twin-keel options persuades a massive majority of new-boat buyers to buy the continental standard product...and having bought it, few will admit that it might have been nice at least to have the option to visit drying harbours, assuming they have such sensibilities.

But I don't believe that buyers of AWBs over 30ft keenly make the conscious, wilful choice that they don't ever want to creek-crawl...

...all their friends and family, possibly even themselves will, while cruising the English coast, spy so many tempting places to stop which the fin makes out-of-bounds, that the fin-decision will be one which owners must just grin and bear, and claim defiantly they're glad to have made - like very big-car drivers who take all day to find a parking space.

It certainly isn't my problem, but I'm certainly not jeering. I'm sadly conscious that fewer twin-keelers being built means enjoying the freedom of the shallows will become harder as the once-commonplace bilge-keelers grow old and tatty.