Beware of Unscrupulous Brokers

[ChrisChevey]

Eek.

What did the contract say? And do you have written records of things agreed (eg emails) aside from the main contract? Especially the "I was advised by..." part of your post above, and the "vat paid, which they informed us it was" part

If no you have been a bit foolish. if yes you can do something, but it depends what the paperwork says

In cases like this the devil is in the detail. I'm happy to help but need LOADS more to work with than just your post.

Good luck anyway

Yes please any help you can give would be much appreciated thanks Chris

 

[jfm]

Yes please any help you can give would be much appreciated thanks Chris

happy to help but let me be clear: I'm asking you to provide precise and comprehensive information. I'm not going to invent the solution out of thin air but I am happy to make it from the pieces you give me.

 

[Bouba]

If the original owner will not part with the paper work then why? Does he have a dispute about who owns the boat, is he facing bankruptcy or maybe a divorce, the tax man or is it secured to a loan etc. that could leave someone else who has first claim on the boats ownership

 

[ashtead]

The main concern here would seem to be the inability to give good title to any subsequent purchaser of the vessel perhaps more than any claim after this period of time of a claim that title has not passed although that cannot be ruled out as a possibility.
The Op does not say if he has consulted trading standards regarding this broker however if the broker is still trading given the complete lack of regulation of marine brokers or any form of regulator it might be a possible route to gain assistance. We don't seem to know the value involved but surely to protect the position the claimant requires delivery of the title docs and so might be advised to issue some proceedings seeking an order to that effect. It might be that a letter giving time to produce in advance of issuing would be advisable but by the sounds of matter the broker has no intention of addressing matters without the heat being turned up. Presumably salesman at broker is aware of matter but obviously there is risk matter has been hidden by individual salesman from his directors so personal contact with the CEO or a non exec might assist . It really depends on whether broker places customer at heart of its business . My impression is any broker trade body is fairly toothless in controlling the actions of their members or exercising any compliance with normal regulator standards. Maybe another argument for yacht brokers to be subject to compulsory regulation with proper client account rules.

 

[henryf]

I must say T that I don't see this the way you do. Of course we have too little information but it certainly feels like OP has beneficial ownership and an equitable interest in the title, so your negativity on that point and earlier comment about possession of someone else's asset are in my view likely to be wide of the mark.
Still, as said above, we need much more info from OP.

Similar to Ashtead my initial thoughts were not so much proving ownership but more proving VAT status. HMRC seem to place the onus on you to retain paperwork including any invoices for monies paid. In the vast majority of cases owners plod along quite happily and will often buy boats, particularly older boats without too much concern. Where you fall foul is if you want to sell to a bonafide dealer who wants the i's dotted and the t's crossed or if you venture abroad and meet an official with time on his hands.

I know Princess are constantly complaining about incomplete paperwork. They aren't prepared to take the risk because they can't just sweep things under the carpet as some brokers do. If they take a boat into stock they own the problem outright. Brokers merely pass the problem along. Their concern is more for their bit of comission.

I bow to JFM's far superior knowledge but the fact your boat is likely to be circa 30 years old now could make things much easier.

Don't lose too much sleep at this stage or get frightened by doom mongerers. I'm sure there will be a largely positive outcome.

Henry

 

[petem]

VAT issue aside, if the OP can trace the PO then couldn't a Bill of Sale be signed and the issue goes away? One must assume that the PO had good title as nobody has come after the boat in the past two or so years. It does beg the question what the issue was two years ago resulting in the current lack of documents.

 

[henryf]

I think just a case of a 30 year old boat and stuff getting lost along the way.

If only we had a central register which logged owner, vat status and so on. Bizzare really as much cheaper cars have it although I agree the registered keeper isn't necessarily the legal owner.


Henry

 

[Portofino]

I think just a case of a 30 year old boat and stuff getting lost along the way.

If only we had a central register which logged owner, vat status and so on. Bizzare really as much cheaper cars have it although I agree the registered keeper isn't necessarily the legal owner.


Henry

That's what they have in Italy a blue book kept on the boat ,a reg doc with the local port authority and the reg No on the boat .
As well as ( think your car V5 ) the usual BS of dim,s engine cc ,Hp , etc there's the owners name and address on it .
To get reg they need to be VAT paid by individual .
If Company owned -and leased or Bank owned its all there in black n white .So the VAT status is transparent .
It's in the sellers interest to update the reg doc and put the new owner on it to absolve him /her of the annual boat tax .
So the seller is highly motivated to not loose any paper work and ensure procedure is followed .
Guardia Finanza boats patrol IT waters and do routine inspections -pull you ck via lap top that the tax has been paid .
They run the reg No on the system and check the blue book info is correct .

So H in the Uk under a reg system -- consider this -- if your Prinny was reg,d and inland rev were afloat in the Solent every day ,you would eventually be done .
By the time they boarded ,they will have your last and previous tax returns on the screen .
If the size /value of the boat looks disproportionate to your declared taxable income ------ they will ruin your day .

Boat reg ( and the document to support ) is usually related to a revenue generating system in those country's that have gone down that route .

There's Allways a flip side .
Sshh --let's just drop the reg idea carry on bumbling along --best to sweep that one under the carpet .

 

[MapisM]

To get reg they need to be VAT paid by individual.

Not necessarily - as you also said, it can be a bank or a company that owns the boat (the former typically being the case with leasing).
But the rest of what you said is essentially correct, with another side advantage: if the boat is used as a collateral for a loan, that must also be registered, on pain of nullity.

Ref the fear of taxman controls connected to the registration, I never understood what all the fuss is about.
I suppose that also in the Solent (or wherever) the authorities have the right to make controls, or don't they?
And if they find someone helming a gin palace whose formal owner is somewhat sheltered, are they unable to put two and two together...

 

[Tranona]

I must say T that I don't see this the way you do. Of course we have too little information but it certainly feels like OP has beneficial ownership and an equitable interest in the title, so your negativity on that point and earlier comment about possession of someone else's asset are in my view likely to be wide of the mark.
Still, as said above, we need much more info from OP.

Seems no longer an issue now we know the seller received his money.

 

[Tranona]

Similar to Ashtead my initial thoughts were not so much proving ownership but more proving VAT status. HMRC seem to place the onus on you to retain paperwork including any invoices for monies paid. In the vast majority of cases owners plod along quite happily and will often buy boats, particularly older boats without too much concern. Where you fall foul is if you want to sell to a bonafide dealer who wants the i's dotted and the t's crossed or if you venture abroad and meet an official with time on his hands.

I know Princess are constantly complaining about incomplete paperwork. They aren't prepared to take the risk because they can't just sweep things under the carpet as some brokers do. If they take a boat into stock they own the problem outright. Brokers merely pass the problem along. Their concern is more for their bit of comission.

I bow to JFM's far superior knowledge but the fact your boat is likely to be circa 30 years old now could make things much easier.

Don't lose too much sleep at this stage or get frightened by doom mongerers. I'm sure there will be a largely positive outcome.

Henry

As has been discussed here previously on many occasions, there is no legal requirement to keep a VAT receipt, just as there is no need for any other consumer good. Its importance has been hyped out of all proportion. If the boat was purchased in the UK, kept in the UK, owned throughout by private citizens there is absolutely no chance of there ever being a demand for VAT. This covers the vast majority of used boats traded every year.

There are of course boats that do not meet these requirements, but they are a tiny minority and it is wise to explore the history of the boat. as we now know a bit more about the boat - particularly as it was made outside the EU, it could fall into that minority category. However it seems that the boat was sold by a dealer originally in the EU, and if that first sale was to a private citizen then lack of a VAT invoice is the least of his worries.

 

[c_j]

When we were looking for our latest boat I spotted a targa 48 in Holland. We contacted the main dealer and as I had problems getting paperwork for our previous boat asked that he send me copies of all paperwork. The dealer advised that the owner was away but would meet me at the boat in Amsterdam with all of the paperwork. we travelled to Amsterdam on their word and met the owners representative who was unaware that he should have the paperwork with him. (yeh sure). The boat looked very good and I asked that they send me copies so as we could conclude the deal. Did not hear a thing despite several calls, even threatening legal action for costs regarding our abortive trip, but some months later the same boat appeared with a UK broker. I phoned and asked if they had the paperwork. they said they did and would call me back. Still waiting for that call. Although having a complete paper trail is essential in my humble opinion, many people don't consider it important and loose it. As long as the dealer does a deal he's not worried.
With a 30 year old boat I think the op should enjoy the boat and not worry too much. There is the 5 year rule referred to by another, and some of the paperwork can be reconstituted with copies. A copy of an original VAT invoice would be useful I suspect . I would continue to strongly pester the broker for a bill of sale at least.

Because of the pitfalls I would advise anyone buying a high value boat to use a Solicitor who specialises. At least then you have someone to sue when it all goes pear shaped.

 

[Tranona]

I think just a case of a 30 year old boat and stuff getting lost along the way.

If only we had a central register which logged owner, vat status and so on. Bizzare really as much cheaper cars have it although I agree the registered keeper isn't necessarily the legal owner.


Henry

Can't see anything that suggests the boat is 30 years old. However if it is then it may well be "deemed VAT paid" under the transition arrangements so lack of vAT invoice would be irrelevant.

Not a chance of establishing a register, nor any real need. Imagine the cost of setting it up if you want to include all boats, and then maintaining it. although there is a lot of hot air about difficulties arising from lack of paperwork, in reality the number of cases is tiny and there does not seem much that prevents buying and selling of used boats.

 

[henryf]

It's a Princess 385 which I think would place it mid to late 1980's early 90's. I'm not familiar with the model so am happy to be corrected.

Henry

 

[jfm]

It's a Princess 385 which I think would place it mid to late 1980's early 90's. I'm not familiar with the model so am happy to be corrected.

Henry

Nope, it's a Carver 39. Getting old papers on a Princess is sometimes do-able, but nigh-on impossible for a Carver

 

[henryf]

Ah, sorry about that. Post #18 threw me.

If there's a solution I'm sure you will find it

Henry

 

[petem]

Is all the RCD / CE stuff in order and documented I wonder?

 

[jfm]

Pete, I wouldn't wonder. This thread is "Beware of a bad broker but I'm not telling you who, and please help me deal with a difficulty that depends on detail but I'm not actually going to give you any detail".
To OP, I know the first owner of a c39 called Jamanda, btw. Bought new from UK dealer. Well it was called that up to 1999; the name might have changed since

 

[ROW]

I agree for the OP, VAT status is unlikely to be challenged.

However as I see it, the issue isn't whether VAT has been paid, the issue is whether it was reclaimed and therefore should have been charged on sale. I don't see how you can ever get documentary proof that the VAT wasn't reclaimed. As I see it the VAT liability would sit with the vendor and Customs & Excise would go after them unless they could prove some form of collusion.

My feeling is as long as you check the vendor isn't VAT registered, then you wouldn't expect a VAT invoice and ought to be OK assuming it's VAT paid and not recovered, thus not chargeable.

VAT is such a complex area though so my logic may be wrong. I'd be interested to hear other's views on the issue of whether the VAT could have been recovered.