Beware of Unscrupulous Brokers

[ChrisChevey]

I have dealt with a Yacht brokers at Swansea for many years, they have benefited from many sales of our boats, however in 2014 they sold our Princess , the funds were transferred to allow us to purchase a another vessel they also had on brokerage, My wife and I loved this new boat to us and advised the broker to pursue the sale, I was advised by the broker that the vessels documents would be dropped into them soon by the owner who was on holiday and out of the country at that time, and would call us once they had the documents , and it was ok to take ownership of the vessel now , the keys are on-board.
I thought there was mutual respect between us due to the many years we have known these guys, so we trusted them implicitly. That was the foolish mistake, two years on we have still not received any documentation at all for this vessel I have not even received or signed a bill of sale or received proof of Vat paid, which they us informed us it was. They also told an earlier potential buyer of this vessel the same story, the truth is they have misplaced the documents or didn’t have them from the previous owner at all, and because we are small fish and not big spenders we are nothing. anyway has anybody got any advice on the way forward from here they have stopped talking to us now and basically said tuff

 

[Tranona]

Report him to the YDSA and take legal advice from the RYA. On the basis of what you have written you do not have title to the boat. Very foolish (in retrospect) to hand over money without receiving title documents. Ytust should never come into this sort of transaction. Money should only pas if you receive the title documents in exchange. The contract you signed would have made this very clear and the seller is in breach of contract.
suspect you will need to take action to recover your money from the broker. However far more detail is required before anybody can give specific advice on actions you should take. your case will not be helped by you being in possession (if I read you correctly) of somebody else's property for 2 years.

When you get to your legal advisor you must tell him everything and produce all the evidence (letters emails details of phone conversations etc. Just stick to the facts (but facts like your wife loved the boat are irrelevant).

 

[lpdsn]

It took me a while to get the last bits of paperwork out of my broker, I suspect they had to chase the previous owner a bit, but I presume you've been at it for a couple of years so have given them plenty of time. The one that stands out in your case is not having a bill of sale. Surely that leaves the broker a bit vulnerable.

 

[[2068]]

Sorry to hear that you have had problems, but I have always thought that the boat buying process is fraught with difficulties all around, compared to any other expensive purchase such as a house or car.

For instance, if you buy a stock boat from a dealer, chances are that the boat is actually owned by a bank!
That's right, you take delivery of a £100k boat and all you have is a piece of paper saying you paid lots of money to a dealer.
A few weeks later, you get the actual documents confirming the change in ownership.

In your case, if it turns out that the original owner showed the documents to the broker when the boat was listed, then the broker might reasonably have assumed that those same documents would have been handed over when the boat was sold, and this is what should have happened. If the owner was "on holiday" at the time, he should have delegated the document handover to someone else, or delayed the sale.
I'm surprised the broker allowed the sale to go ahead on a promise, but if in the meantime, the owner throws all the documents into the canal, what is the broker to do?

If you could somehow trace the previous owner before the one you bought it from, they might have copies of bills of sale?
It all sounds like a bit of a nightmare, because not having these things will make it hard for you to sell the boat in the future

.

 

[superheat6k]

I am not sure I agree not having title documents to a boat, which is an unregistered asset, actually matters at all. A contract of sale does not have to be supported with paperwork on an unregistered asset, regardless of its value, it simply helps make things more cut and dry, thats all.

The suggestion the OP has held on to someone else's property and the implied illegality of this for two years is in my view utter nonsense.

I have a garden fork with no receipt, that I have had for years - am I as implied breaking some form of law by not having a receipt - I don't think so. So the title documents are actually not ultimate proof of ownership. I would assume that the OP can show he did pay the vendor is proper proof enough, and anyway had the vendor not received his cash he would have come knocking by now.

So whereas the OP is obviously dealing with a rogue outfit, not having the title is simply an inconvenience. It is unlikely the VAT receipt will be an issue unless there is a strong possibility the boat has been an import, and only then if it is taken outside the UK.

Five years undisputed ownership used to be accepted as clear title, so simply keep your berthing receipts. Not an ideal situation, but not one to lose sleep over IMHO.

 

[volvopaul]

I have dealt with a Yacht brokers at Swansea for many years, they have benefited from many sales of our boats, however in 2014 they sold our Princess , the funds were transferred to allow us to purchase a another vessel they also had on brokerage, My wife and I loved this new boat to us and advised the broker to pursue the sale, I was advised by the broker that the vessels documents would be dropped into them soon by the owner who was on holiday and out of the country at that time, and would call us once they had the documents , and it was ok to take ownership of the vessel now , the keys are on-board.
I thought there was mutual respect between us due to the many years we have known these guys, so we trusted them implicitly. That was the foolish mistake, two years on we have still not received any documentation at all for this vessel I have not even received or signed a bill of sale or received proof of Vat paid, which they us informed us it was. They also told an earlier potential buyer of this vessel the same story, the truth is they have misplaced the documents or didn’t have them from the previous owner at all, and because we are small fish and not big spenders we are nothing. anyway has anybody got any advice on the way forward from here they have stopped talking to us now and basically said tuff

Would this have been a Princess ,V 45

 

[Concerto]

I agree with superheat6k. The OP made a verbal contract to buy the boat via the broker and paid the money. He has had fully use of the boat since paying for. The previous owner does not care about the documantation he should have provided as he has been paid. Not having a Bill of Sale may be a problem in the future, but is not an insurmountable problem as the OP can sign a declaration as to what has happened and should be able to back this up with supporting evidence.

The only potential problem could be if the previous owner did not receive the money from the broker. Then he would still be the owner and the broker has fraudulently sold the boat. Then it could become an expensive legal picnic. It may be worth the OP demanding the agent provide insurance to cover this against this as protection of his asset.

I am not in the legal world, but this is my suggestion.

 

[jfm]

Eek.

What did the contract say? And do you have written records of things agreed (eg emails) aside from the main contract? Especially the "I was advised by..." part of your post above, and the "vat paid, which they informed us it was" part

If no you have been a bit foolish. if yes you can do something, but it depends what the paperwork says

In cases like this the devil is in the detail. I'm happy to help but need LOADS more to work with than just your post.

Good luck anyway

 

[Tranona]

Whilst a Bill of Sale is not the only evidence of title, nor does the contract have to be in writing, the OP will have great difficulty in establishing title based on what he has told us. . all dealings seem to have been through the broker and presumably he paid the broker, not the owner. There seems to be no direct line of communication with the owner, therefore it is difficult to see how a binding verbal contract could exist.

There are too many unknowns to be able to give clear advice - all that can be suggested is possibilities - which of course result from the assumptions we each make about what happened. Apply the normal tests of whether a contract exists (assuming there was not a written one) based using the information provided so far and it would fail on at least two. No evidence buyer and seller have a greed (all dealings through a third party), no evidence of consideration passing (money was paid to a third party).

Of course this may not be correct - but this is what the OP has said.

 

[petem]

The OP is lucky that JFM has offered to help. Unfortunately, I'm learning that if a story sounds dodgy, it normally is.

The OP would be well advised to use someone like Ward McKenzie for his next purchase to ensure the paperwork is all in order.

 

[jon and michie]

Name and shame the brokers - This may then help any future boat buyer especially if new to the boat world

jon

 

[Orange]

Name and shame the brokers - This may then help any future boat buyer especially if new to the boat world

jon

+1 please.

 

[JumbleDuck]

The contract you signed would have made this very clear and the seller is in breach of contract.

Doesn't sound as if he signed a contract.

your case will not be helped by you being in possession (if I read you correctly) of somebody else's property for 2 years.

On the other hand, the fact that nobody has shouted "Oi, that's my boat" or called in the police during these two years suggests that the previous owner is happy with the situation. Or maybe dead, of course.

 

[jfm]

Whilst a Bill of Sale is not the only evidence of title, nor does the contract have to be in writing, the OP will have great difficulty in establishing title based on what he has told us...

I must say T that I don't see this the way you do. Of course we have too little information but it certainly feels like OP has beneficial ownership and an equitable interest in the title, so your negativity on that point and earlier comment about possession of someone else's asset are in my view likely to be wide of the mark.
Still, as said above, we need much more info from OP.

 

[ari]

The only potential problem could be if the previous owner did not receive the money from the broker. Then he would still be the owner and the broker has fraudulently sold the boat. Then it could become an expensive legal picnic. It may be worth the OP demanding the agent provide insurance to cover this against this as protection of his asset.

I am not in the legal world, but this is my suggestion.

I'm not in the legal world either, so stand to be corrected. But my understanding is that the broker is the seller's agent, and is acting on the seller's behalf. Therefore if the previous owner did not receive the money, it would be down to him to pursue the broker for the money owed, and not the case that he still owns the boat.

As for insisting on insurance, I'd be extremely surprised if an insurance company would be happy to guarantee to cover potential losses (whoever for) on a deal that was done two years ago and for which there appears to be no paperwork.

 

[volvopaul]

If the boats a recent Princess I'm sure PMYS can help with original Vat invoice and bill of sale to start a paper trail which is what you need. As for billnof sale from the broker I'd suggest 2 things, you tell us who they are and send them a link to this thread , no company likes bad publicity. If it's the broker I'm thinking it is they have already had one of there agents banged up in past years for fraud .

 

[KINGFISHER 9]

If it's the broker I'm thinking it is they have already had one of there agents banged up in past years for fraud .

That'll make him feel better! ... :encouragement:

 

[ChrisChevey]

sorry for the delay just got home from work no I wish, it was a Princess385

 

[ChrisChevey]

Hi Paul and everyone for their help so far, The boat the broker sold for me was a Princess385, the boat we have the issues with is a Carver 39 the original owner of the Carver was paid for his vessle

 

[Nigelpickin]

Carver was not called 'Biff'by any chance?