Best Value For Money New Generation Anchor

One reason we use alloy is that we do want to be able to deploy (and retrieve) by hand. I'm not quite as old as you Flica (and admire your tenacity). You, and Tranona, are an example to us all.

We carry a FX 23, which I think it too big! and am toying with going down is size (and will be trying a smaller model in the next few weeks). Its not too big because its too heavy, its about 8kg as are the other alloy anchors, but because it would hold us in a Hurricane and we are wimps and go hide, still at anchor, when only Storms are forecast. We carry textile to allow shorelines and tie to trees and rocks (If possible). I estimate the FX 23 fluke is about 30% bigger than either the Excel or Spade A80. We have never had an issue with setting the Fortress but would use it in sand or mud. In stones or medium weed either or both of the Spade and Excel.

I usually deploy from the dinghy (one anchor deployed by windlass and the second, in a 'V' from the dinghy) and we would use 15m of 6mm chain and 40m of nylon, 12mm I think. Flica - one way to cut back on weight would be to use 6mm chain, for a Med moor you do not need a G70 (or even G40) a G30 would be plenty strong enough and 6mm would save a few kgs over an 8mm.

I've only confirmed the size of the 15kg, 33kg and 55kg Rocna and to me they have the same fluke areas as the similarly weighted Mantus (set side by side) - I've not actually measured them to check for nuances. The Mantus 'looks' huge but its the protuberance securing the roll bar that make it look massive.


I'm amazed that Plastimo do not have outlets in Greece. I knew they had their issues but to cut out Greece with its huge itinerant yachting population seems like shooting yourself in the foot. I've seen Kobra's on yachts based in Greece - but never thought to ask where they came from.

Jonathan
 
Neeves said:
Evan never said why he changed from a Rocna to a Bruce, or Bruce copy.
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From memory it was just down there and bruces come into their own as size gets huge, can't remember what setup was on Hawk before or on Silk ---
Wrong , from the wayback machine as their site is no longer around -
110lb Bruce anchor. No drags ever. The Bruce anchor always scores poorly on anchor tests but we have had flawless performance with both our 44lb and 110lb models. We recently sent out 50kg Bruce in for regalvanizing and they broke it (it came back with cracks all around the shank to blade join). So, we are now trying several of the new anchor designs plus a new Bruce design (made by Manson because the genuine Bruce is no longer sold).
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From an article by Beth -
https://web.archive.org/web/20160324041726/http://bethandevans.com/pdf/Higher latitudes.pdf

Anchoring and mooring. To sit out storm-force winds on a weekly basis, any boat must beequipped with lots of over-sized anchors, plenty of chain and a powerful windlass.
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And a link to the excellent article on load testing knots & splices -

https://web.archive.org/web/20160318230212/http://www.bethandevans.com:80/load.htm


Edit - Found a bit more about Hawks anchor >
https://web.archive.org/web/20160328125709/http://www.bethandevans.com:80/pdf/anchor.pdf

ConclusionsOur new “Next generation/Roll Bar” anchor sets and holds extremely well in deep sand and mud bottoms,and is superior to the prior plows and Bruce anchors in these bottoms. It has trouble setting in rocky orcorally bottoms and is not as good a multi-bottom/difficult bottom anchor as a big Bruce. My netrecommendation is that this anchor would be a good choice if you want to get a ‘normal’ size anchorbecause of its superior penetration/holding but if you want to get an ‘oversized’ anchor I think a big Brucetype would be a better choice because of better performance in difficult bottoms.
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And this , where he talks about bruces being good if they are big ->
https://web.archive.org/web/20160109153046/http://www.bethandevans.com:80/pdf/Main Anchor test.pdf

ConclusionsFor full time cruising we strongly recommend the biggest anchor your boat can carry. Anextra 10kg may make the difference between setting in a difficult bottom and having tomove to another anchorage.The Ray, ROCNA & Supreme are all good anchors. The design and performance of theROCNA and Supreme are very close, with the edge going to the Supreme on lower cost. The Ray/Bruce is a quite different design – potentially offering faster & deeper setting inbad bottoms but with lower total holding power. The Ray/Bruce does make an excellentgeneral purpose anchor you must go a size or two larger than the equivalent roll-baranchor. (Note: we do not recommend Bruce copies in sizes less than 20kg as the designdoes not scale down below that size very well and the holding power drops offdramatically). The Ray is quite expensive compared to other Bruce copies, but it isnoteworthy that its forged shank construction would prevent the casting cracks thandestroyed our Bruce.
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Neeves said:
One reason we use alloy is that we do want to be able to deploy (and retrieve) by hand. I'm not quite as old as you Flica (and admire your tenacity). You, and Tranona, are an example to us all.

We carry a FX 23, which I think it too big! and am toying with going down is size (and will be trying a smaller model in the next few weeks). Its not too big because its too heavy, its about 8kg as are the other alloy anchors, but because it would hold us in a Hurricane and we are wimps and go hide, still at anchor, when only Storms are forecast. We carry textile to allow shorelines and tie to trees and rocks (If possible). I estimate the FX 23 fluke is about 30% bigger than either the Excel or Spade A80. We have never had an issue with setting the Fortress but would use it in sand or mud. In stones or medium weed either or both of the Spade and Excel.

I usually deploy from the dinghy (one anchor deployed by windlass and the second, in a 'V' from the dinghy) and we would use 15m of 6mm chain and 40m of nylon, 12mm I think. Flica - one way to cut back on weight would be to use 6mm chain, for a Med moor you do not need a G70 (or even G40) a G30 would be plenty strong enough and 6mm would save a few kgs over an 8mm.

I've only confirmed the size of the 15kg, 33kg and 55kg Rocna and to me they have the same fluke areas as the similarly weighted Mantus (set side by side) - I've not actually measured them to check for nuances. The Mantus 'looks' huge but its the protuberance securing the roll bar that make it look massive.


I'm amazed that Plastimo do not have outlets in Greece. I knew they had their issues but to cut out Greece with its huge itinerant yachting population seems like shooting yourself in the foot. I've seen Kobra's on yachts based in Greece - but never thought to ask where they came from.

Jonathan
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The Fortress is becoming increasingly attractive - the Mantus has been worked out by measurement of the existing one I have and scaling down to the web dimensions for its smaller brother. The Fortress is simple maths exercise.
I really have difficulty in finding any design differences between Kobra and Delta.
Alain always went on about the lack of fluke area of the plough anchors, though he never intimated they didn't work.
The SWMF CQR copy I first had with this boat was a dog, Set 2/3 attempts, usually landed inverted, so I know about bad anchors and have a fellow-feeling for those on these sites who confess to their frustration and anxiety.
One could argue that the 16 degree angle of the Mantus allows faster penetration than the 30 degree of the other concave anchors, though I have to admit, the price advantage of the Mantus was its main attraction and the subsequent support I had from Greg Kutsen. In practice it has only dragged twice, failed to set first time about 5 times in 3 years and about 300 deployments. It is the most awkwardly shaped of all the concaves, a pig to clean off when you finally recover it from stiff mud, which can take 10-15' and 4/5 attempts.
Nautilus here in Greece stock both Fortress and Mantus, not the Kobra (why would they when they offer the full Delta range.)
I would remind you that Lalizas is the Greek marine brander, Plastimo the French. I got to know a lot of people a
@ Rue Ingeineur Verrier when I was there. Slightly less than Lazilas their products are relatively cheap and cheerful, possibly excepting their compasses, which compare with the best magnetic boat compasses.

My big problem is the lack of a power windlass (fitting one means a total re-wire) and failing strength. Which means I need to find crafty work-rounds, rather then the "best" solution.
I suspect that world-sailors are not interested in being guinea pigs, the CQR was reliable until the pin-joint wear caused its drop in setting success-rate.
 
The Mantus is an excellent performing anchor.

Prior to the Mantus I used the same sized Rocna for roughly 1500 nights. In most locations I dived to observe the performance, so I am familiar with the depth of set. Overall the Mantus has set deeper and more rapidly. The difference is only slight. The Rocna is still an excellent anchor, but the Mantus is noticeably better in my view.

I also compare the Mantus with anchors used by other boats in the same location. It is a rare location that it is not the deepest set of any of the boats around us. Dont believe any nonsense about the Mantus anchor not setting as deeply as other models. I have published photos of all these results so you can judge them for yourself.

As others have correctly noted, bigger anchors will set slightly less deep than an identical smaller model. A larger fluke develops more resistance and therefore does not have to dive as deeply to counteract the applied setting force. As more force is applied all anchors will try to dive deeper, but the larger anchor has more reserve before the maximium depth is reached and extra force starts pulling the anchor backwards. Thus a larger anchor will always have more holding power than a smaller model of identical design. The only exception of very unusual substrates such as rock where the anchor is holding by hooking onto the rock itself.

The greatest benefit of this increased holding power is the ability to anchor confidently in poorer substrates, particularly when combined with a very high performance anchor that has good performance in wide range of substrates like the Mantus. It also provides some reserve to enable the use of slightly shorter scopes and this opens up anchor locations that would otherwise be untenable.

The best policy for a long distance crusing boat is to go for the largest anchor you can comfortably handle. When the wind's howling, you will not regret this decision.
 
The Kobra is completely different to the Delta. Narrower fluke, protruding ballast chamber, ballast concentrated nearer the toe, different shank profile, sharper toe. I think the folding mechanism daft, mine is now welded up. The fold is pretty insignificant and I don't see that it makes storage any easier, better the removable shank like Spade or Anchor Right's alloy Excel. I'm not keen on the Kobra shank strength - which is why I would not use it as a primary and I'm prepared to spend more on my anchors than others might - its about priorities.

If you look at one of Panope's videos where he is resetting anchors, I think about #60 he tests a Mantus and has previously tested a Spade and Excel. The Spade and Excel lock up on the reset test - the Mantus is continuing to move (a function of its shallow set). He did not notice, he thought it had set, until he looked at his own video.

Every modern anchor, Rocna, Fortress (set up for sand), Spade, Kobra, Excel, Supreme, Knox sets at around 30 degrees (it does vary - though I do not know why, between about 35 and 25 degrees). Only the Mantus sets with its fluke plate at 16 degrees. Tests by the US Navy demonstrated that a fluke/ seabed angle of, I think it was 18 degrees, results in a ultimate hold of 50% of a fluke/seabed angle of 30 degrees.

This does not matter as the hold potential will still be greater than you will ever need - but its not efficient.

A shallow angle is advantageous in very hard seabeds in association with a sharp toe, and will engage quickly. I have no very hard seabeds to test in.

A Fortress set up for mud, at 45 degrees, will be a miserable failure in sand and a complete disaster in a hard seabed.

How many seabeds are there so hard where a Rocna or Spade are defeated? Hard seabeds are not that common.

Alain's exposure to convex anchors was unfortunately limited to Delta and CQR - design has moved on since then. Both the Excel and Kobra (different to each other) have moved the concepts forward and maybe borrowed other facets from other anchors. The protruding ballast chamber, moving the weight forward, being one example - and a little change in design makes a lot of difference.

Jonathan
 
Quote by Noelex

'If we look at a well set*anchor*such as this*Mantus, we can see the anchor has managed to bury all the fluke and shank. All that is visible is the rollbar. To reach this level of bury the anchor has to drag down the connection between the anchor and the chain below the substrate. If this connection is bulky, it will reduce the anchor's ability to bury and reach this stage.'

Virtually every image on the thread shows the Mantus anchor with the shank horizontal and clear of the seabed. The images appear to contradict the statement.

If the shank is horizontal the fluke is at 16 degrees. If you extrapolate the ability of the fluke to set sufficiently deeply to bury the shank - the anchor will need to move a considerable distance - simple geometry.

Buried chain blankets the impact of the chain moving on the anchor. If the chain is exposed any chain movement directly impacts the anchor. If the chain is buried and the chain veers - it must drag through the part buried in the seabed before the anchor is impacted.
 
Neeves said:
Dashew suggest monster anchors. His 64' motor yacht has a 250hp engine, most yachts of 65' might have a 75hp engine - guess which engine can more deeply set the anchor. Hold is measured in the horizontal - if you drift back over your, shallow set, anchor - which do you want a deep set or shallow set anchor. Seabed shear strength increases with the square of depth.

.
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1) Wind Horse is 83'..
2) The late Michel Joubert also advocated large anchors and windlasses.
 
I have a couple of Spades for about 12 years

S80 on the bow, now a bit rusty, but works very well and a A140 stored down below.

The idea of the A140 was as a storm anchor - but aluminium might not be best for this use.

I have never used the A140 - and was thinking that I should sell it and replace it with a big galvanised "new gen".
The mantus looks good as it comes apart - and is cheaper too.
Hopefully never have to use it - but you never know.

The boat is a heavy 45 footer.

I would be interested in the various opinions on the forum.

Thanks

Stephen
 
Do the rnli, snsm, whatever police boat etc *ever* anchor? I have always seen bright shining new anchors on their bows.
Would they ever drop the hook, turn off engines and go to sleep in anything than normal conditions? Do they ever sleep? :)
 
GHA said:
From memory it was just down there and bruces come into their own as size gets huge, can't remember what setup was on Hawk before or on Silk ---
Wrong , from the wayback machine as their site is no longer around -


From an article by Beth -
https://web.archive.org/web/20160324041726/http://bethandevans.com/pdf/Higher latitudes.pdf



And a link to the excellent article on load testing knots & splices -

https://web.archive.org/web/20160318230212/http://www.bethandevans.com:80/load.htm


Edit - Found a bit more about Hawks anchor >
https://web.archive.org/web/20160328125709/http://www.bethandevans.com:80/pdf/anchor.pdf




And this , where he talks about bruces being good if they are big ->
https://web.archive.org/web/20160109153046/http://www.bethandevans.com:80/pdf/Main Anchor test.pdf
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Well researched GHA!

Interestingly Hawk and Silk use the same sized anchors, around 50kgs and they both sailed and used the anchors in high latitudes. There is no indication they wanted to replace their 50kg anchors with anything bigger.

Interestingly they both used older styles, Bruce on Hawk and CQR on Silk. Both anchors are rated as HHP, vs the more recent models which are almost all SHHP, excluding Mantus and Vulcan which have never been tested by anyone (or the results are not published). The SHHP vs HHP ratings have been confirmed by the Classification Societies (CS) and the results are illustrated in every anchor test since 2006. The CS allow a 30% reduction in weight if a SHHP anchor is used instead of a HHP anchor - which means that on both Hawk and Silk the CS would allow use of a 35kg anchor. Given that the SHHP set more quickly, more reliably and have twice the hold of HHP anchors there seems a degree of caution in even allowing the 30% weight reduction.

To me a 35kg anchor is not overly large on either Hawk nor Silk. People would be better spending money on a new windlass system, better snubber arrangement than allowing the blue funk to dictate how their wallets are used.

Yet on a smaller vessel in Greek waters we have someone extolling an anchor even bigger than the ones carried by Hawk and Silk. If anything it shows very little confidence in the anchor.

The whole basis of the new anchors is that, in general, they work so well - but the fear motive is trotted out every time.
 
Sybarite said:
1) Wind Horse is 83'..
2) The late Michel Joubert also advocated large anchors and windlasses.
Click to expand...

I know I make mistakes but could not believe that mistake! The smallest motor yacht in the range is the 64' and Dashew's recommendations, for large anchors, are the same for the small as the biggest.

When you have a 250hp engine and a 100kg anchor (and a 100kg anchor is much larger than most would have on a 64' yacht) you have a possible power to weight ratio of 2.5:1. Most sail yachts have auxiliary motors and anchors well below that 2.5:1 , nearer 1:1. Dashew can set large anchors deeply and securely - we need to rely on wind, which may come from a totally different direction to our original ideas. In fact to set a 15kg Rocna deeply in good clean sand and test its potential needs a tension of 2,000kg - well beyond anything nature is going to throw at most of us.

We can see the results of a large anchor with a low engine power to anchor weight ratio in Noelex' images - the anchor is never deep set (find me one image with the anchor disappeared). Noelex will say it does not matter but he never shows his anchor deep set - so why not simply use a smaller anchor - in 7 years in Greece he has never needed the 'potential' he carries.

I wonder of the impact such a large anchor, far bigger than the Bruce and CQR on Hawk and Silk, has on sailing performance when sailing to windward.

For detail on the 64'

http://www.setsail.com/fpb-64-owners-do-it-right-2/

Jonathan
 
Roberto said:
Do the rnli, snsm, whatever police boat etc *ever* anchor? I have always seen bright shining new anchors on their bows.
Would they ever drop the hook, turn off engines and go to sleep in anything than normal conditions? Do they ever sleep? :)
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There must be a reason why they would spend considerably more on buying a Spade or Excel over a Delta. All meet Classification Society standards and can therefore be used but the considerable difference in price between a Delta and either Spade or Excel suggest they went for performance.

The Tasmanian police cover some pretty inhospitable and uninhabited coastline which they cannot access quickly nor easily. They will have need to overnight, though whether they do or not - I do not know.


To answer you final question - I am sure the Tasmanian Water Police are super human but even they must sleep, much like the rest of us :)
 
Flica said:
Most probably that the Tassie police got a good financial deal.
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I'm sure they did - but I bet it was not as good as buying a Delta from Lewmar. If the deal was that good - every yacht newly commissioned in Australia would carry an Excel - they. almost without exception, carry Delta.
 
It is interesting that, in the last 5 years anchor sizes for most anchor-ranges appear to have rationalised.
Now nearly all the "recommendation" tables appear to put forward a 25-lb steel anchor bower for my boat - SARCA, Mantus, Delta, CQR, even ROCNA (who demanded a far heavier anchor in 2012).
Aluminium anchors, by Fortress and Spade are the sports, recommending half the weight (Spade only offer a suitable alloy anchor).
All I do know with my Mantus, chosen because it was the cheapest at the time, when set a 2500rpm in reverse, fishtails the boat within a boat-length (in 6m depth), totally buries the stock and frequently the roll bar, in soft bottoms.
Most "anchor tests" carried out by magazines choose a single bottom type, and come up with wildly varying claims for the same make of anchor. One has to query their methodology and accuracy.
Even more than with other opinions few anchor users will confess to having made a bad choice.
Certainly in my communications with Alain Poiraud, he only made comparison with the CQR plough. His points were valid - all the convex anchors have a much smaller fluke area than concave ones of similar weight.
The one effective academic study on anchors, proved that the 1.5ton Bruce was superior in all aspects (especially resetting) to any other anchor then current, for N Sea rigs.
So we are faced with a welter of opinions, masquerading as facts, with 50% of the variables ignored, and high levels of passion from the adversaries.
 
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