Best Value For Money New Generation Anchor

[Flica]

I'm sure they did - but I bet it was not as good as buying a Delta from Lewmar. If the deal was that good - every yacht newly commissioned in Australia would carry an Excel - they. almost without exception, carry Delta.

Which probably supports my decision to retire my 14 year old Delta. Certainly Lewmar have the volume from all the big boatbuilders. Nearly every new boat, French, German, (I don't have the US numbers), Australian have the Delta as standard.

 

[Neeves]

Flica,

Good points.

Your current dilemma is which product to buy to allow you to retrieve with some sort of ease. Maybe you can describe what is your current practice. Your criteria are slightly tighter than 'best value for money' as you want 'best value for money and ease of retrieval - manually' (and there is nothing wrong with that!)

On anchor tests - incredibly difficult, horrendously expensive and commonly very messy (muddy). I can assure you that most testers are trying as hard as they can to make the results sensible - but seabeds vary, even within 1m, and there is not much you can do about that - except have as many pulls as possible (more money).

The tests can produce contradictory results, such as the CQR coming near the top in one test and near the bottom in another.

But in general the new designs are better (in terms of hold, speed of setting and consistency) than the older models. Frankly I don't think it is possible to tell the difference between Spade, Rocna, Supreme, Excel, Knox, Fortress etc - they develop similar hold, they do so quickly and they are pretty consistent - in sand (chosen for testing because its not mucky!).

But if lightweight is important then your choice falls to Spade, Excel and Fortress (or a smaller anchor ) Knox does seem to have a slight performance edge - but the increase in hold offering a lighter model is marginal.

But there are differences, Convex anchors do not pull up the volume of seabed you collect on your concave anchor (which can clog a fluke with restricted space). Roll bars can restrict the stowage of anchors on bow rollers. Some anchors, though they perform similarly, are more expensive than others. Some anchors are only easily available in selected markets, Excel and Knox being a prime examples. Really - only fluke anchors have any modicum of reliability in soft mud. Anchors with high tensile shanks tend to be stronger and have less (or no) issues with bent shanks.

As newer anchors have similar hold differentiation tends to focus on other issues, can I buy it, will it fit, does it look pretty.

Having seen the variability of performance that you have outlined, actually doing the tests, we would not rely on one design, hence carrying 3 different anchors. And having tested 15kg anchors in a variety of seabeds (and then used them up and down the Australian east coast) we do not see the imperative to go bigger (but we are able to deploy 2 anchors as 'primaries' should we desire.

I'm reputedly overly passionate - but I dislike the smoke and mirrors, I dislike claims that cannot be supported and when questioned are not answered. I'd like to believe there is an anchor that works better at short scope - but have seen no evidence. I'd like to see evidence that a bigger anchor works better than a smaller one in difficult seabeds - but I'm not buying a bigger one because someone SAYS it is so (better).

But describe your facilities - maybe then you can enjoy a better suggestion.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

I have a couple of Spades for about 12 years

S80 on the bow, now a bit rusty, but works very well and a A140 stored down below.

The idea of the A140 was as a storm anchor - but aluminium might not be best for this use.

I have never used the A140 - and was thinking that I should sell it and replace it with a big galvanised "new gen".
The mantus looks good as it comes apart - and is cheaper too.
Hopefully never have to use it - but you never know.

The boat is a heavy 45 footer.

I would be interested in the various opinions on the forum.

Thanks

Stephen

Our 38' cat weighs in at 7t and has a similar windage to a 45' Bav. We use 8kg alloy anchors, one of which is an A80. Great anchor, good in medium weed, stones, sand (as they all are) but poor (as is the Excel) in thin mud and very soft sand.

Are you prepared to deploy 2 anchors in a 'V' or do you want one other anchor to be used alone, or primarily alone, as a 'storm' anchor? However you use the potential new second anchor - how are you going to deploy and retrieve (separate rode, swap current S80 with new anchor etc). Do you have restrictions at your bow roller, negating use of a roll bar anchor.

Jonathan

 

[Flica]

Flica,

Good points.

Your current dilemma is which product to buy to allow you to retrieve with some sort of ease. Maybe you can describe what is your current practice. Your criteria are slightly tighter than 'best value for money' as you want 'best value for money and ease of retrieval - manually' (and there is nothing wrong with that!)

On anchor tests - incredibly difficult, horrendously expensive and commonly very messy (muddy). I can assure you that most testers are trying as hard as they can to make the results sensible - but seabeds vary, even within 1m, and there is not much you can do about that - except have as many pulls as possible (more money).

The tests can produce contradictory results, such as the CQR coming near the top in one test and near the bottom in another.

But in general the new designs are better (in terms of hold, speed of setting and consistency) than the older models. Frankly I don't think it is possible to tell the difference between Spade, Rocna, Supreme, Excel, Knox, Fortress etc - they develop similar hold, they do so quickly and they are pretty consistent - in sand (chosen for testing because its not mucky!).

But if lightweight is important then your choice falls to Spade, Excel and Fortress (or a smaller anchor ) Knox does seem to have a slight performance edge - but the increase in hold offering a lighter model is marginal.

But there are differences, Convex anchors do not pull up the volume of seabed you collect on your concave anchor (which can clog a fluke with restricted space). Roll bars can restrict the stowage of anchors on bow rollers. Some anchors, though they perform similarly, are more expensive than others. Some anchors are only easily available in selected markets, Excel and Knox being a prime examples. Really - only fluke anchors have any modicum of reliability in soft mud. Anchors with high tensile shanks tend to be stronger and have less (or no) issues with bent shanks.

As newer anchors have similar hold differentiation tends to focus on other issues, can I buy it, will it fit, does it look pretty.

Having seen the variability of performance that you have outlined, actually doing the tests, we would not rely on one design, hence carrying 3 different anchors. And having tested 15kg anchors in a variety of seabeds (and then used them up and down the Australian east coast) we do not see the imperative to go bigger (but we are able to deploy 2 anchors as 'primaries' should we desire.

I'm reputedly overly passionate - but I dislike the smoke and mirrors, I dislike claims that cannot be supported and when questioned are not answered. I'd like to believe there is an anchor that works better at short scope - but have seen no evidence. I'd like to see evidence that a bigger anchor works better than a smaller one in difficult seabeds - but I'm not buying a bigger one because someone SAYS it is so (better).

But describe your facilities - maybe then you can enjoy a better suggestion.

Jonathan

Aft anchor, usually used for bows to Med mooring in ports. Only used about x6 year, depths usually 2-10m, rode 25m 7mm chain and 50mm 10m octoplait. Deployment as I come up to the quay, stop the boat on idling engine in forward and attach the two forward warps. Usually 50m of rode out.
Bottoms usually hard mud, frequently heavily churned by other anchors, and sometimes with seagrass. Infrequently rock.
Deployment and recovery over an aft roller, manually. Tensioned, after both forward warps attached, by using the sheet winch on the Octoplait.

 

[Poignard]

I note the new Tasmanian Police boats are now equiped with Anchor Right Excels, that must be an endorsement.

Or possibly the result of a competitive tendering process. If the police tender doesn't specify the anchor type the builder will fit whatever he can get at the lowest price.

 

[sjdtuk]

I have found the S80 good, in gales gusting into the 50s.

I certainly wouldnt want to use the big one very often - but would be prepared to manhandle it around so not too worried about the bow fiiting.
Prefer one big anchor if its practicable, although was considering this when I bought the anchors 12 years ago.
So I would use the primary 10 mm chain rode with suitable nylon snubbers.

Stephen

Our 38' cat weighs in at 7t and has a similar windage to a 45' Bav. We use 8kg alloy anchors, one of which is an A80. Great anchor, good in medium weed, stones, sand (as they all are) but poor (as is the Excel) in thin mud and very soft sand.

Are you prepared to deploy 2 anchors in a 'V' or do you want one other anchor to be used alone, or primarily alone, as a 'storm' anchor? However you use the potential new second anchor - how are you going to deploy and retrieve (separate rode, swap current S80 with new anchor etc). Do you have restrictions at your bow roller, negating use of a roll bar anchor.

Jonathan

 

[Mark-1]

So we are faced with a welter of opinions, masquerading as facts, with 50% of the variables ignored, and high levels of passion from the adversaries.

Ideal topic for an internet forum then!

 

[Neeves]

Aft anchor, usually used for bows to Med mooring in ports. Only used about x6 year, depths usually 2-10m, rode 25m 7mm chain and 50mm 10m octoplait. Deployment as I come up to the quay, stop the boat on idling engine in forward and attach the two forward warps. Usually 50m of rode out.
Bottoms usually hard mud, frequently heavily churned by other anchors, and sometimes with seagrass. Infrequently rock.
Deployment and recovery over an aft roller, manually. Tensioned, after both forward warps attached, by using the sheet winch on the Octoplait.

I hope you mean 50m of 10mm octaplait?

I do not believe you use a sheet winch for retrieval of the chain, you appear to have a reasonable set up and I deduce you omitted to mention that you retrieve the kedge, stern anchor, rode by hand as you leave the port. However you have mentioned you find lifting a fluke full of seabed hard work (who does not) and assume you use short strops (on the winches) with chain hooks on the chain to pull in the last few metres (with the port seabed attached to the fluke). You then motor gently, out of the port, with the anchor suspended in the water to wash the flukes.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

I have found the S80 good, in gales gusting into the 50s.

I certainly wouldnt want to use the big one very often - but would be prepared to manhandle it around so not too worried about the bow fiiting.
Prefer one big anchor if its practicable, although was considering this when I bought the anchors 12 years ago.
So I would use the primary 10 mm chain rode with suitable nylon snubbers.

Stephen

Stephen,

The A140 is not that heavy - we are constantly changing and using different 15kg anchors. Its a bit of a faff but not really hard work - you just need to be organised. You have found the S80 more than adequate for 12 years so I'm not entirely sure why you want to dump the A140 (and I suspect its second hand value is a shadow of its new cost). It is easy to assemble, one bolt with nyloc nut and a cotter pin) relatively easy to store and retrieve from 'wherever'. It will work 'like' your S80.

The unknown I have is the size of a shackle that will fit both anchor and chain - but you will know that, maybe you need 2 (one to fit the shank and one to fit the chain).

Our A80 is stored in pieces, because it is easy to assemble, but our Fortress is stored ready assembled (as, I think, it has 10 nuts and bolts, of 2 different sizes and then 2 flukes, 2 clips, 2 mud palms, shank and stock - not something do in the dark and rain) but it does fit neatly assembled into one of our lockers (alongside our spare rode held in a milk crate). It is also relatively easy to store on deck you can buy 'off the shelf' brackets and they would be easy to make. We store an adjustable spanner, the knife + another with shackle key, torch, flat and star screwdrivers in a 'thing' like a dedicated knife rack at the helm.

So unless you envisage sitting out a Hurricane, Typhoon or Cyclone in mud (in which case I'd suggest a Fortress, which will excel in mud, sand and light weed) I'd keep the A140 which will be very average in sloppy mud but good in sand. weed and stony seabeds.

The fact you have not had need to use the A140 simply suggests you watch weather forecasts and your S80 is reliable and versatile.

In any event if your snubbers are not 'deck length' and around 12mm - they are too short and too big in diameter.

See GHA's thread on snubbers (and buy the December issue of ST)

Jonathan

 

[Flica]

I hope you mean 50m of 10mm octaplait?

I do not believe you use a sheet winch for retrieval of the chain, you appear to have a reasonable set up and I deduce you omitted to mention that you retrieve the kedge, stern anchor, rode by hand as you leave the port. However you have mentioned you find lifting a fluke full of seabed hard work (who does not) and assume you use short strops (on the winches) with chain hooks on the chain to pull in the last few metres (with the port seabed attached to the fluke). You then motor gently, out of the port, with the anchor suspended in the water to wash the flukes.

Jonathan

Indeed you're right on the rode lengths.

I only use the sheet winches to tension the anchor rode, after tying up, recovery by just hauling is easy enough with a 6kg Delta, even when it comes up with a mud-cap. Unless there is a beam wind in excess of Bf5 the boat tracks true and away from the quay. Yes, both kedge and bower anchors are washed off in the slipstream, though the Bower, a Mantus, is most difficult, often needing prising off, especially round the shank-bolts.
The kedge and its roller is on the starboard quarter. With a transom-hung rudder central positioning is inappropiate. The chain and textile rode stored in a battery box in the aft cockpit.
As so happens the Delta has set nearly every time, first time, but due to its (IMHO) inadequate fluke area drags occasionally if an onshore wind occurs. Catastrophic drag has occurred 3 times in a total of about 95-days deployment, over a period of 9 years. Nearly all working marinas have tails to a ground chain between pontoons. It's not unknown in adverse weather for these to part or, if too tight, to pull off the cleat to which they are attached.
As with most end-on berthing, constant re-tightening of the rode is necessary, hence the use of the sheet winches. Most boats in Greek ports carry this out regularly whilst moored (except charterers), using their anchor winches, suggesting that either their bower anchors are undersized or some inching forward of the anchor is inevitable.
Far more common is having my rode wound round a propeller-shaft or the rode/anchor lifted by another party - that latter has happened 3 times this season alone.
You can see I why I avoid Greek ports, especially those haunted by charterers or Italian boaters.
Hope this elucidates the requirement.
Now I must go and wash the salt off the 110% genoa, dry, fold and bag it.

 

[Sybarite]

I know I make mistakes but could not believe that mistake! The smallest motor yacht in the range is the 64' and Dashew's recommendations, for large anchors, are the same for the small as the biggest. .....Jonathan

There was a 64' in Jersey a few weeks ago, just about to head off trans Atlantic.

 

[Neeves]

There was a 64' in Jersey a few weeks ago, just about to head off trans Atlantic.

They were, or still are, built in NZ. They used to use Rocna and Fortress but changed to Supreme and Fortress, all hugely oversized, and with G70 chain. I don't know why they changed anchors - it was never detailed, even when on the website they did show one of the Supremes and it was the size of a man. There was some sort of difference of opinion between partners and you can now source a similar vessel from Seattle or Vancouver, don't recall which (for the uniniated, i.e. me, the 2 vessels look very similar, or the same).

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Or possibly the result of a competitive tendering process. If the police tender doesn't specify the anchor type the builder will fit whatever he can get at the lowest price.

The anchors were specified by the Tasmanian Water Police after their own assessment of the available anchors, primarily Rocna, Supreme, Boss, SARCA , ULTRA and Excel. The anchors were a special size 118kgs, as the size they wanted fell between the sizes made at the time by Anchor Right. Price was not an issue (according to the Police representative I spoke to) - they wanted Excels. The boat builder did as told a designed the bow roller to suit the anchors. Excel do sell well in Tasmania and you will see many on the bow of yachts there, they do tend to be smaller than the ones on the police boat

Jonathan

Edit

I've been on the phone again:

Being under Survey in Australia the anchors must be certificated, which includes a Proof Test. Proof testing will show up any inadequacies in strength of the toe, shank and welds (which is why buying anchors that are regularly Proof Tested: Ultra, Fortress, Spade Excel, Supreme and Rocna (in the past) is some form of reassurance. The Tassie Water Police boats must have 2 independent windlass, 2 anchors and 2 rodes.

Clse edit

 

[Neeves]

Quote Originally Posted by Flica

So we are faced with a welter of opinions, masquerading as facts, with 50% of the variables ignored, and high levels of passion from the adversaries.

end quote,

I do find when I challenge some of the truths:

For example:

That an anchor with a fluke seabed angle of 16 degrees is as good as one with 30 degrees

A bigger anchor of the same design can cope better with difficult seabeds

That a specific design can be used at low scope ratio

etc

I do not get an answer - and the last comment without any qualification is downright irresponsible.

I also note that criticisms of anchors can be bandied about willy nilly, think back to the Kobra, yet when the toe of an an anchor cracks it merits no mention, ever.

Bent anchors are hardly unusual - cracked anchors are almost, not quite, unheard of.

Flica - a very astute comment.

Jonathan

 

[Flica]

Quote Originally Posted by Flica

So we are faced with a welter of opinions, masquerading as facts, with 50% of the variables ignored, and high levels of passion from the adversaries.

end quote,

I do find when I challenge some of the truths:

For example:

That an anchor with a fluke seabed angle of 16 degrees is as good as one with 30 degrees

A bigger anchor of the same design can cope better with difficult seabeds

That a specific design can be used at low scope ratio

etc

I do not get an answer - and the last comment without any qualification is downright irresponsible.

I also note that criticisms of anchors can be bandied about willy nilly, think back to the Kobra, yet when the toe of an an anchor cracks it merits no mention, ever.

Bent anchors are hardly unusual - cracked anchors are almost, not quite, unheard of.

Flica - a very astute comment.

Jonathan

In any human endeavour, errors will creep in.
Welding can cause embrittlement, so anchors with welded toe-weights, those with welded shanks,can be viewed with a degree of suspicion. This encompasses nearly all the concave anchors. It's likely to be most marked in those manufacturers who have a faulty QAS system. I've seen a Spade going back after only a season with galvanising worn through - they changed it with no quibble.
5 of us spent a day and a half in Syracuse, trying to raise a Bugel after a 2-day storm. The anchor and 2m of chain had disappeared completely. In fact I think that Rolf Kaczirek beat Alain to publishing the design and, those drawings are in the public domain so, to one who can access the necessary sub-contractors, has to be easily the cheapest concave (well it's flat) on the market.
A lot of gobbledegook is written on the subject (sorry Jonathan, I know it's your profession) of individual anchor designs and I would be the first to agree that the corpus of knowledge is sufficient for most newly-released anchors to out-perform their predecessors. The 2 most important factors are, however IMHO, the knowledge/experience of the nut releasing the chain and the nature of the seabed. Other considerations are almost insignificant.
As an acquaintance of mine said "There's no such thing as an agnostic seaman.." Their dogma is now, I perceive, mainly focussed on anchors!!

 

[BelleSerene]

Best VfM new-generation anchor? If you'll allow a broad definition of NG anchors, here's a bid: www.eco-nautisme.com/

It's reviewed in October's Voile Magazine (which you can buy from their iPad or iPhone app). Complete kit €79, to bolt to your existing trusty Brittany-type anchor.

New Generation? Some here would say. Best VfM? May be hard to dispute!

 

[Sybarite]

Best VfM new-generation anchor? If you'll allow a broad definition of NG anchors, here's a bid: www.eco-nautisme.com/

It's reviewed in October's Voile Magazine (which you can buy from their iPad or iPhone app). Complete kit €79, to bolt to your existing trusty Brittany-type anchor.

New Generation? Some here would say. Best VfM? May be hard to dispute!

Wake up at the back...!!

See post #109.

Incidentally FOB also do a new generation anchor. Voile Magazine, when reviewing the Rocna, said that it was up to the standard of the FOB Rock. (see below)

Here is an interesting test carried out in 2012 which shows that the break-out traction for the Rock is more than twice that of the Kobra, and nearly twice that of the Delta.

Spade, as usual comes out at the head of the list.

http://www.stfeurope.com/pdf/Voile-Magazine-2012.pdf

As far as the CQR was concerned they decided to exclude the results from the final summary because the results for it were too variable. They said that it often unhooked when the pull direction changed and the anchor would pull on its side. They indicated that the hinge kept the point up off the bottom preventing it from digging in.

 

[jordanbasset]

Another anchor test here involving the following anchors BRITANY, KOBRA 2, DELTA, BUGEL, MANSON SUPREME, BRAKE 16, SPADE S80, XYZ CQR, SPADE A80, SPADE A100 and FORTRESS FX37
http://www.chainsropesandanchors.co.nz/image/data/PDFs/Yachting Monthly -Anchor Test Nov09.pdf
In relation to the Kobra 2
'Our underwater footage proves the excellence of the design – the Kobra was thesecond-best anchor on test– and its behaviour in use was reassuringly predictable. It never failed to set, always digging in rapidly and burying itself well. It’s assuredly the winner of this test. Taking into account the modest price tag, it’s excellent value-for-money'

The Delta did okay but not so well, which fits into my real world experience and why I got rid of the 16kg Delta on my boat and replaced it with a 14kg Kobra 2
You pays your money and you makes your choice

 

[Neeves]

Sadly, and though I agree 'roughly' with the assessment of the Kobra, for Flica it appears to be simply unobtainable, wherever he is. I think it, the Kobra, excellent value for money - but if you cannot source it? He has used a Delta with some success and few failures he would like to eliminate which suggests the style is acceptable. The only anchors of that style with a decent track record are Kobra, cheap and cheerful and Excel which will be quite pricey - but both are not easily accessible in Greece. Our experience is that for a comparable performance - Spade - but it is hardly 'best value for money' excellent - but pricey.

If I were in Greece I'd be looking at how much it might cost to have a Kobra delivered from wherever to Greece, contact Plastimo and conform an an absence of Greek stock - and then re-assess once I have an answer. I'd also contact Anchor Right - they do deals and there is a regular shipment of single anchors to Europe for individuals.

Jonathan

Edit - When enquiring I'd ask for pricing on a smaller model (which is what people usually do when they buy a kedge) but I'd also look to buying a both a kedge and primary - so check full sized price as well.

Its worth considering most new yachts a re commissioned with a Delta - anchor makers are in business to supply people who upgrade and to supply people who lose their anchor - and without the latter many would go belly up. Anchors are lost surprisingly easily (been there, done that and retrieved it eventually) - its worth having a second primary - so that you can anchor whilst you find the one you lost

close edit

 

[jordanbasset]

Sadly, and though I agree 'roughly' with the assessment of the Kobra, for Flica it appears to be simply unobtainable, wherever he is. I think it, the Kobra, excellent value for money - but if you cannot source it?
If I were in Greece I'd be looking at how much it might cost to have a Kobra delivered from wherever to Greece, contact Plastimo and conform an an absence of Greek stock -
Jonathan

Agree with your post. I ordered mine from Force 4 Chandlery in the UK and had it delivered to Corfu. Cost of a 14kg Kobra 2 including delivery was £166.70 (delivery cost was £36.75)