Best seakeeping boat 40-48feet

[oldgit]

Do people think it's possible to damage the boat through not slowing down? I mean of course you may break some crockery if you haven't stowed it,but could you actually damage the boat itself?

Chum went to look at a Fairline Targa 37 in Nice with a surveyor to buy his very first boat.
The boat was purchased based on the survey report.
Later went down with him for a weekend jolly, he showed me the survey.
Reading through, it mentioned a cracked rib .
Asked to see the offending item and sure enough there was obvious split in the glass fibre bonding attaching the rib to the hull.
When questioned chum said the surveyor had commented it was probably as a result of the boat being driven to hard and was not that rare, certainly not enough to prevent a sale or requiring urgent attention.
He never bothered to fix it and the boat was sold without problems a year or so later when he upgraded to a Targa 43.

 

[MapisM]

By way of offering something materialistically constructive to this thread , as opposed to what appears to be sniping from the side lines……
What do you actually propose boat wise that sits in the Ops brief ?

Re-check the beginning of this thread:
I was the first to ask Marco to be more specific than just "pleasure luxury boats", because if you consider that alone, plus maximum seakeeping, there's only one logical suggestion that anyone in his right mind can offer, and it's a bluewater trawler, not a toy like an Itama.

In the light of his further clarifications that followed, giving a good suggestion actually became even harder, because:
The Pershing 46 is the very first boat that sprung to mind, but he wants a new one.
He ruled out open (aka toy) boats like the Itama 45RS, hence also the much better Otam 45, I suppose. And I can see why.
OTOH, he considered the Pershing 5X (and rightly ruled it out due to IPS), which is just above the 40-48 range. So, at that end of the range, he could check out also the Rizzardi Infive - if he can live with surface drives, which even if nowhere near IPS, are a bit of a headache in some ways, anyhow.
But he also threw a spanner in the works when he said "my quest for best seakeeping boat is also a boat capable of running "in between" D and plane at proper speeds. So to have more flexibility.".
And this rules out each and every fast boat on the planet, bringing us back to the likes of Nelson, Magellanos, and the likes.
So, I'm afraid he must make up his mind and set some priorities, because compromise is always the name of the game, with boats.

Now that I hopefully sorted your question, would you be so kind to answer mine about...
what exactly do you mean by "big head seas" you cruised in at 22/24 knots,
...which you keep avoiding?
But please, in one paragraph, and with numbers - no more beating around the bush with hurricanes in Naples!

 

[MapisM]

There are a few comments in this thread about slowing down because I don't want to damage the boat.

Do people think it's possible to damage the boat through not slowing down?

It's not just possible, it actually happens.
Forget crockery, I can recall at least three boats that I've seen in boatyards with cracked stringers and bulkheads.
And the bottom absolutely flawless - which proves they didn't hit anything but waves.
Waiting for the insurer surveyor to understand whether worth repairing or not.
But don't ask me to name names, I wasn't even supposed to see them.

 

[marcochi76]

Re-check the beginning of this thread:
I was the first to ask Marco to be more specific than just "pleasure luxury boats", because if you consider that alone, plus maximum seakeeping, there's only one logical suggestion that anyone in his right mind can offer, and it's a bluewater trawler, not a toy like an Itama.

In the light of his further clarifications that followed, giving a good suggestion actually became even harder, because:
The Pershing 46 is the very first boat that sprung to mind, but he wants a new one.
He ruled out open (aka toy) boats like the Itama 45RS, hence also the much better Otam 45, I suppose. And I can see why.
OTOH, he considered the Pershing 5X (and rightly ruled it out due to IPS), which is just above the 40-48 range. So, at that end of the range, he could check out also the Rizzardi Infive - if he can live with surface drives, which even if nowhere near IPS, are a bit of a headache in some ways, anyhow.
But he also threw a spanner in the works when he said "my quest for best seakeeping boat is also a boat capable of running "in between" D and plane at proper speeds. So to have more flexibility.".
And this rules out each and every fast boat on the planet, bringing us back to the likes of Nelson, Magellanos, and the likes.
So, I'm afraid he must make up his mind and set some priorities, because compromise is always the name of the game, with boats.

Now that I hopefully sorted your question, would you be so kind to answer mine about...
what exactly do you mean by "big head seas" you cruised in at 22/24 knots,
...which you keep avoiding?
But please, in one paragraph, and with numbers - no more beating around the bush with hurricanes in Naples!

You mentioned all my dream boats!

Otam45: there is a black one here in Monaco with surface drives. Wonderful!
But interior layout very compromised…

Rizzardi infive: yes. That could be the best candidate l. I think also available with shafts. But honestly…why out of my budget today (I mentioned Pershing 5X more for discussion than as real target).
The incredible 45 looks good. But they show their age.

A Princess v48 with shafts would be great, but they offer it with IPS since I think 2013; which is the oldest I would go.
The same for Fairline targas of similar dimensions.

I understood there is no solution.
For a real boat (where real means shaft!), you need to go back 15years or go over 50feet, which is not an option today.

 

[Portofino]

Re-check the beginning of this thread:
I was the first to ask Marco to be more specific than just "pleasure luxury boats", because if you consider that alone, plus maximum seakeeping, there's only one logical suggestion that anyone in his right mind can offer, and it's a bluewater trawler, not a toy like an Itama.

In the light of his further clarifications that followed, giving a good suggestion actually became even harder, because:
The Pershing 46 is the very first boat that sprung to mind, but he wants a new one.
He ruled out open (aka toy) boats like the Itama 45RS, hence also the much better Otam 45, I suppose. And I can see why.
OTOH, he considered the Pershing 5X (and rightly ruled it out due to IPS), which is just above the 40-48 range. So, at that end of the range, he could check out also the Rizzardi Infive - if he can live with surface drives, which even if nowhere near IPS, are a bit of a headache in some ways, anyhow.
But he also threw a spanner in the works when he said "my quest for best seakeeping boat is also a boat capable of running "in between" D and plane at proper speeds. So to have more flexibility.".
And this rules out each and every fast boat on the planet, bringing us back to the likes of Nelson, Magellanos, and the likes.
So, I'm afraid he must make up his mind and set some priorities, because compromise is always the name of the game, with boats.

Now that I hopefully sorted your question, would you be so kind to answer mine about...
what exactly do you mean by "big head seas" you cruised in at 22/24 knots,
...which you keep avoiding?
But please, in one paragraph, and with numbers - no more beating around the bush with hurricanes in Naples!

Posts #27 to 28 .Answer is in those .Look at the times FWIW , we typed together.


@the Op , arm chair and I pad , or dock walking is fine but if you can get to drive them with your wife it will become self evident, narrow it right down .

 

[mcanderson]

We too have a sub 40‘ sports cruiser and have had a rough trip to St Tropez. The secret to not having another one of those is planning I have found. When we hit the 20kt plus head winds we should have diverted. We had left the Lerins in the morning. Popped into Agay for lunch and over lunch the wind picked up. Having stuck our nose out we committed to seeing if it would get better. It didn’t. But we pushed on to St Tropez and arrived safe, but you could cut the air with a knife.

So now we aim to arrive early in St Tropez, not to push on if there is a forecast that doesn’t look great and accept that some days we might just stay in port/at anchor.

Changing boats to be able to go boating on say next Tuesday (25 Jul) looking at the Beaulieu forecast doesn’t add up if you ask me.

 

[MapisM]

A Princess v48 with shafts would be great, but they offer it with IPS since I think 2013; which is the oldest I would go.
...
For a real boat (where real means shaft!), you need to go back 15years or go over 50feet, which is not an option today.

I'm confused, 'cause you said boats under current production, in your OP.
But if you're willing to consider also used boats, I struggle with the logic of an arbitrary limit to 10yo.
I mean, I appreciate why you wouldn't want to look at boats too "old", but some pre-global financial crisis boats were better built than some brand new ones, in many ways.

Of course, shopping for them is harder because conditions can stretch anywhere from excellent, down to "don't touch with a bargepole".
Just to confirm that I put my money where my mouth is, I looked at almost 80 boats before buying my current one, and my restrictions were VERY wide: flybridge, ballpark size 60', quality builder, fiberglass construction.
And I didn't give myself ANY age limit.
Eventually, the size of the boats I considered was from 52 to 65 feet, which is a pretty large range, but the age differences were even larger, stretching more than 20 years, from the late 80s onward.
And I can tell you that some of the older boats were MUCH more worth considering than some of the newer ones.

Anyhow, if you go down the used route, it's pointless to suggest some particular models.
In fact, your search is bound to be based on what is available at any given moment.
Good luck.

 

[MapisM]

Posts #27 to 28 .Answer is in those

No, it isn't. Facts and numbers are nowhere to be found, in any of your talkative posts.

I'll reiterate for the last time:
what exactly do you mean by "big head seas" you cruised in at 22/24 knots?

If you're not willing to mention wave height & length, plus Beaufort scale, you can save your time and avoid writing any other useless mumbo jumbo, because the only logical conclusion - which to be completely honest I already half reached - is that you don't have a clue of what you can or you can't do with a boat (regardless of brand and model!), when cruising in big head seas.

 

[DAW]

We too have a sub 40‘ sports cruiser and have had a rough trip to St Tropez. The secret to not having another one of those is planning I have found. When we hit the 20kt plus head winds we should have diverted. We had left the Lerins in the morning. Popped into Agay for lunch and over lunch the wind picked up. Having stuck our nose out we committed to seeing if it would get better. It didn’t. But we pushed on to St Tropez and arrived safe, but you could cut the air with a knife.

So now we aim to arrive early in St Tropez, not to push on if there is a forecast that doesn’t look great and accept that some days we might just stay in port/at anchor.

Changing boats to be able to go boating on say next Tuesday (25 Jul) looking at the Beaulieu forecast doesn’t add up if you ask me.

100% agree! I have a heavy, 60ft boat with shaft drives, moderately deep-v hull and fin stabilisers which can handle most Med conditions with relative ease and I wouldn’t venture out based on Tuesday’s forecast … the tail-end of a Mistral with +30 Knot winds and potentially 2-3m waves is not for the faint hearted

I don’t think there is a simple answer to the OP’s question. In the 40-50 ft range you have to make compromises and decide whether you want to prioritise performance and sea-keeping or accommodation, interior volume and comfort. Most of the boats from mainstream builders should be able to handle most of the conditions a reasonable person would encounter. If you want to push the limits and maintain speeds of 20-22 knots in more difficult conditions, or take on bigger seas, then you need either a bigger boat, or a more extreme design, which means you have to compromise elsewhere.

That being said, I think traditionally designed boats with deep or moderate V hulls will usually outperform those with flatter bottoms, which inevitably means that boats with shaft or surface drives will usually be better in adverse conditions than those with IPS or other methods of propulsion. Boats with a lower centre of gravity and with the engines positioned more centrally in the boat than is the trend on more “modern” designs should also have a performance advantage.

Unfortunately, the modern trend for tall, beamy, flat-bottomed boats with IPS and engines pushed as far back as possible to create more interior volume is not a recipe for good sea-keeping, and it’s why so many of them need stabilisation systems to enhance comfort even in moderate conditions.

 

[petem]

Chum went to look at a Fairline Targa 37 in Nice with a surveyor to buy his very first boat.
The boat was purchased based on the survey report.
Later went down with him for a weekend jolly, he showed me the survey.
Reading through, it mentioned a cracked rib .
Asked to see the offending item and sure enough there was obvious split in the glass fibre bonding attaching the rib to the hull.
When questioned chum said the surveyor had commented it was probably as a result of the boat being driven to hard and was not that rare, certainly not enough to prevent a sale or requiring urgent attention.
He never bothered to fix it and the boat was sold without problems a year or so later when he upgraded to a Targa 43.

It's not at all uncommon on those boats and a cheap repair.

 

[Elessar]

Hello All,
thanks for your comments. OK, my question was 'a little' too vague...
And I was expecting Porto's answer.

Let's try to reduce the scope to planing sport cruisers.
It is a real interested question. I know the qualities of the likes of Itamas, Magnums, Otams, ...
But what options exists?

When I think at sport cruisers of common brands (Princess, Fairline, Sunseeker, Cranchi, Sessa, ...) I do not perceive a real difference in seakeeping capabilities. Maybe I'm wrong?

Not to avoid the fact that they all come with stupid DPH or IPS...

This last week while I was cruising to St Tropez, I faced a nice head wind of +20knots .
And I had to reduce speed down to displacement to not hurt the boat. Maybe I am too careful but I really try to avoid any small slamming which happens time to time when I encounter irregular wind waves.

Obviously I love my boat and I have no short term plan to change it.
But it is nice in life to dream about a future upgrade.
My wife is enjoying cruising and boat life more and more.
It would be nice to be able to cruise in more irregular conditions with no stress.

Another example, next week I am planning a cruise to Portofino.
But a strong wind + sea is coming from "Golf du Lyon" since this Tuesday.
It is a 4h trip at planing speed, but if I have to go down to displacement... it's a different story...

My Sealine T46 has a great hull.

This is me going to Lymington in a head sea, F6 gusting 7 Thursday before last after work.

Wind was with tide which helped the sea state but even so MY Maia didn’t break a sweat. SOG 16.something STW 20.

Others say you have to have certain angles of deadrise or you won’t get out of the marina. Yet I do double the hours or more of many so my boat works for me.

 

[stelican]

Posts #27 to 28 .Answer is in those .Look at the times FWIW , we typed together.


@the Op , arm chair and I pad , or dock walking is fine but if you can get to drive them with your wife it will become self evident, narrow it right down .

Perhaps you could take the OP out in your boat for a sea trial.

 

[stelican]

My Sealine T46 has a great hull.

This is me going to Lymington in a head sea, F6 gusting 7 Thursday before last after work.

Wind was with tide which helped the sea state but even so MY Maia didn’t break a sweat. SOG 16.something STW 20.

Others say you have to have certain angles of deadrise or you won’t get out of the marina. Yet I do double the hours or more of many so my boat works for me.

 

[stelican]

Nice boat riding well but a force 6 in sheltered waters of the Solent is not like mid channel.
I can't see any waves

 

[Elessar]

Nice boat riding well but a force 6 in sheltered waters of the Solent is not like mid channel.
I can't see any waves

It’s from a flybridge. Film waves and they never show especially from a flybridge.
And the western solent in a south westerly can be nasty. You can make out the yacht pitching.
I take it across the channel too and know the difference between a good boat and a bad one.

 

[stelican]

It’s from a flybridge. Film waves and they never show especially from a flybridge.
And the western solent in a south westerly can be nasty. You can make out the yacht pitching.
I take it across the channel too and know the difference between a good boat and a bad one.

Still saying no more than a Solent Chop.No real force in the waves.
Know what a flybridge is.

 

[Elessar]

Still saying no more than a Solent Chop.No real force in the waves.
Know what a flybridge is.

I bow to your superior knowledge.

 

[Bajansailor]

Do people think it's possible to damage the boat through not slowing down? I mean of course you may break some crockery if you haven't stowed it,but could you actually damage the boat itself?

Some years ago I had a survey job here on an almost brand new top (then) of the range centre console from a very reputable Builder which had just completed a 100 mile passage to windward from St Lucia back to Barbados - and all of the internal hull structure was shearing and failing.
The Builders sent one of their guys down here to look at the boat after I reported my findings (they had commissioned the survey) and he agreed with me as to what had happened - he arranged to have the boat shipped back to the Builders where they basically stripped it, and re-installed everything on a new hull, all under guarantee, and then shipped the boat back to the owner here.
The Builders made sure that the team who had built the original boat were the same guys who had to then dismantle it, so they could learn from their experiences.

 

[oldgit]

It's not at all uncommon on those boats and a cheap repair.

The crack was very localised about 25 cms long around 5 cms deep. Looked to have been present for a long time without any further deterioration.
Did wonder if it was some sort of stress built in when the hull was laid up and at some time after first launch it simply adjusted its position.
Skipper was caught out later in the year, enough for some of the roof panels to end up on the cabin floor.
The crack was unchanged.

 

[piratos]

It’s from a flybridge. Film waves and they never show especially from a flybridge.
And the western solent in a south westerly can be nasty. You can make out the yacht pitching.
I take it across the channel too and know the difference between a good boat and a bad one.

Hi. Agree its a nice rice, but I have to agree this is no where near to a F6- F7 situation. Think we should first of all get to the point where we are talking about the same when we talk about weather - Wind is not all, and without wind you can still have considerably sea state. Reading through various threads here I notice that quite a lot calculate the hight of a wave from the bottom up to the top - this is wrong as this includes also the depth. Worst case is when the hight is calculated as the difference from the bottom to the highest point - and I know that looking at waves hight easily becomes a guessing. In one of the threads here it was also mentioned that it would be nice to have the speed range between 10 adn 20 knots without the hump - yes thats Semidesplacement boats. I mentioned earlier that the perfect boat simply does not exist. Its always a compromise. Best is to use the boat you have chosen and accept the limits - even if the limits mean you have to slow down in some wheather conditions. Its all about arriving safe and not first.