Beneteau First lost her keel, four good men lost at sea.

lustyd said:
Someone earlier said you'd know it if you hit a container - the skipper of Polbream didn't know he'd hit a rock and lost the keel. He described it like bumping the ground briefly and then carrying on as normal, including sailing back from the Scillies.
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MandyRiceDavies.JPG
 
E39mad said:
Are you a naval architect/design engineer? Have you studied the drawings and technical data for this type of yacht design? If not how do you know?

FWIW I have no affiliation to any particular design BUT have enough experience of both bolt on keels (including an ocean crossing) and encapsulated keeled yachts.
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So you HAVE experience of matters technical and I do NOT. Is that your line? No I don't think I want to have a dialogue with you on that basis but 50 years of boat ownership and maintenance have given me a feel for what is right and half a dozen bolts in a single line is no way to secure something which the elements are hell bent to remove. The CSSA 's rented boat for the last Fastnet, "Blue Juice" had to retire when SHE started shipping water due to structural failure. THAT was a 40.7 too!
 
Steve C Cronin said:
So you HAVE experience of matters technical and I do NOT. Is that your line? No I don't think I want to have a dialogue with you on that basis but 50 years of boat ownership and maintenance have given me a feel for what is right and half a dozen bolts in a single line is no way to secure something which the elements are hell bent to remove. The CSSA 's rented boat for the last Fastnet, "Blue Juice" had to retire when SHE started shipping water due to structural failure. THAT was a 40.7 too!
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No I am not in that field either but the prejudices coming out against bolt on keel yachts when we do not know the boats history or the facts behind this tragedy are rather sad on an already sad day for the sailing community.
 
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JumbleDuck said:
MandyRiceDavies.JPG
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There was a whole article in YM about it. Apparently the bolts sheered due to the direct impact aft which was verified by looking at the keel bolts on the keel and the boat later. All the people on the boat felt was a slight lift as the boat lost weight.
 
lustyd said:
There was a whole article in YM about it. Apparently the bolts sheered due to the direct impact aft which was verified by looking at the keel bolts on the keel and the boat later. All the people on the boat felt was a slight lift as the boat lost weight.
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....and fear nothing, the facts behind the present tragedy are already well known and have been revealed by one of the inmates on the other thread:


"It is pretty clear that the sequence is that the end bolts fractured, then the middle bolts taking all the loads started working causing the leaks, then the middle bolts destroyed the structure and pulled right thru the hull. Whether the fracture of the end bolts was caused by fateigue or by a prior grounding is difficult to determine...."
 
doug748 said:
....and fear nothing, the facts behind the present tragedy are already well known and have been revealed by one of the inmates on the other thread:


"It is pretty clear that the sequence is that the end bolts fractured, then the middle bolts taking all the loads started working causing the leaks, then the middle bolts destroyed the structure and pulled right thru the hull. Whether the fracture of the end bolts was caused by fateigue or by a prior grounding is difficult to determine...."
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Not sure I'd call them facts just yet but it certainly seems the most plausible so far. Of course if that turns out to be the case then impact probably wasn't the cause (at least not impact immediately prior) but rather previous issues with the bolts. I'd certainly hope that isn't the case but from what I've read keel bolts are very difficult to actually certify as safe at any given moment. The best you can hope for is "not rusty or bent and done up tight" without resorting to methods too expensive to be commonplace.

I'll add that my previous post wasn't suggesting they did hit something, just that it's possible to do so without knowing under some previously seen circumstances.
 
I really don't see how we are going to get much more information than we currently have - and I see no reason to believe that the USCG and MAIB know much more than we amateurs do. I suppose that recovering the hull might give some useful evidence, but even that is unlikely to answer the critical question of why the keel came off. It seems clear from the latest photos that at least one keel bolt broke and several ripped out the GRP bottom of the boat. the critical question is whether the initial problem was due to an impact on the keel or an inherent weakness in the construction of the boat - and we need the keel to determine that - that is where the impact damage will be if there is any.
 
maby said:
I really don't see how we are going to get much more information than we currently have - and I see no reason to believe that the USCG and MAIB know much more than we amateurs do. I suppose that recovering the hull might give some useful evidence, but even that is unlikely to answer the critical question of why the keel came off. It seems clear from the latest photos that at least one keel bolt broke and several ripped out the GRP bottom of the boat. the critical question is whether the initial problem was due to an impact on the keel or an inherent weakness in the construction of the boat - and we need the keel to determine that - that is where the impact damage will be if there is any.
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An impact on the keel would leave specific signs(cracks)on the hull.Having the keel around would be good but not essential.
 
Steve C Cronin said:
So you HAVE experience of matters technical and I do NOT. Is that your line? No I don't think I want to have a dialogue with you on that basis but 50 years of boat ownership and maintenance have given me a feel for what is right and half a dozen bolts in a single line is no way to secure something which the elements are hell bent to remove. The CSSA 's rented boat for the last Fastnet, "Blue Juice" had to retire when SHE started shipping water due to structural failure. THAT was a 40.7 too!
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Completely aggree with you.The keelbolts arrangement doesn't inspire confidence to me.Naval architects get it wrong ,usually with spectacular results.
 
Daydream believer said:
Fact is - whether you like it or not- the keel ain't there
speculation about it being knocked of by a container may be the cause but on an ocean going boat should it actually do that
In my younger days I sailed my boat into most of the sandbanks in the Thames estuary & one day i actually sailed it up the concrete sea wall near Burnham on Crouch so half the boat was out of the water
But at no point did I wonder if the keel would fall off- More about how to get off without anyone knowing
I motored my current boat into rocks at 6.2 kts & it stopped dead- I did not though- But there is absolutely no sign of damage other than the antifoul being scraped
The point about this is that people do actually run aground & hit things so surely designers should allow for it

One other point is that on the other thread a delivery company queried the experience of the skipper at 21 years of age
Now I am one of those that say that if you are good enough then you are old enough, so whilst i might ask questions ,I cannot criticise his decisions as I was not there

But i cannot help wondering how - when a boat starts leaking, a keel problem was not ( certainly was not considered by them in dispatches as far as I am aware) mentioned
If my boat starts leaking I think i would look at - Seacocks- Rudder tube- hatches & windows-collision holes-& then keel bolts- although in panic mode that might be in a different order. But I keep my liferaft in the cockpit, i think I would cut the straps on it ready to get it free. If it was in a locker would one not get it into the cockpit?

If the keel was beginning to fall off how would it happen. Surely it would waggle about a bit first then a couple of bolts might pop
If a skipper was experienced would he not notice that? & that might be the reason another delivery skipper spoke about experience only being gained by sea miles ( a comment for which he was berated)
Once the keel disappears one has seconds to act & worry about getting those below up on deck first may have delayed life raft deployment. But even then , if it has sails up the boat would lay on its side for a while until the air trapped by the sail is released.

The fact that the boat was reported as leaking suggests that the keel was becoming loose over a period of time & was not an immediate failure cause by hitting a container. Although that may have started the problem. But there does not appear to be any mention of this & one would have thought there would be. You do not hit something & just report a leak . You say you are leaking because you hit a b..y container

Loads of questions, for which there will be no answer. But as others have said it is good to have speculation & not at all negative, as it prepares others for such a scenario. I am already thinking through about how I would react if a leak started & what i should do after the initial " don't panic" -- Carry on pancking I suspect
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And Why was no one wearing a life jacket and clipped on ?
 
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