Beneteau First lost her keel, four good men lost at sea.

[jerrytug]

I personally think that speculation is fine

it is the first draft of history

and where better to speculate than here

run a few theories around the houses


it seems to me the family will no doubt be thinking along the same lines if they are sailors themselves

I doubt very much that they will be reading this thread

I think that some of you guys think that this internet chat room - one of thousands devoted to sailing- is of more importance than it is

this is nothing more than a bit of bar room chat among a group of old sailors

and nothing wrong with that I reckon

as for some-one being successfully sued for a comment on here.... get a grip boys

D

Well said mate, who are these 'Taleban of good taste' who want to censor peoples' comments? It reminds me of Lady Di's funeral, when you could be lynched for correctly describing the accidental death of a sparrow-brained sloane as a non-event.
The lessons to be learned here are, bolt on keels are potentially lethal, and the best that could result is that every boat owner with a bolt on keel gets it scientifically checked to avoid any more tragedies.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

"The lessons to be learned here are, bolt on keels are potentially lethal"

As are gas systems, rigging, diesel systems, electrical power, wind and water.

My encapsulated keel is a big risk too. It's aft edge, if ground on rocks, or smashed on an object can be holed. It would be impossible to access and stem any flow."

Sailing is a hazardous sport and all risks can't be mitigated against. The worst outcome would be prescriptive regulation that attempts to nanny the yachtsman.

 

[sailorman]

Well said mate, who are these 'Taleban of good taste' who want to censor peoples' comments? It reminds me of Lady Di's funeral, when you could be lynched for correctly describing the accidental death of a sparrow-brained sloane as a non-event.
The lessons to be learned here are, bolt on keels are potentially lethal, and the best that could result is that every boat owner with a bolt on keel gets it scientifically checked to avoid any more tragedies.

almost all keels are "bolt on".
its the depth, fine chord & small base area + being nearly vertical leading edge, that could be in modern performance yachts that might be questionable, it "tripped-up"

 

[JumbleDuck]

Rubbish.
A container doesn't necessarily lie level in the water; it is actually very unlikely to. It would be perfectly possible for a keel to hit a container a few feet below the surface leaving no mark on the hull.

Under what circumstances would a container float a few feet below the surface? For a start it would be vertically unstable: any slight increase in depth would increase water pressure, squeeze in the flat(tish) faces of the container, reduce its buoyancy and encourage it to sink still further.

 

[Toutvabien]

almost all keels are "bolt on".

No they are not.

 

[Sans Bateau]

Under what circumstances would a container float a few feet below the surface? For a start it would be vertically unstable: any slight increase in depth would increase water pressure, squeeze in the flat(tish) faces of the container, reduce its buoyancy and encourage it to sink still further.

But it would take time to sink, its that one in a million situation where it is invisible on the surface but still at a depth to be a hazard.

 

[Ursula123]

Absolutely agree, speculation is a good thing it gets minds working and improves knowledge and understanding that maybe one day could save you.
I haven't read anything salacious or nasty but the typed word can be easily misunderstood
I too have been trying to work out what happened. I think I am right that the crew never reported hitting anything, simply taking on water.
You know if you hit a container.
The keel has clearly failed and has taken off a few layers of GRP with it.
I was always of the understanding that on severe impact that the keel bolts are designed to sheer leaving some of the bolt remaining through the mounting plate and internal nuts intact therefore watertight, albeit without a keel. Looking at the amount of GRP that appears to have been pulled away, it seems that the bonded in mounting plate seems to have failed.
Perhaps we will never know how hard they were pushing it in strong winds and big sees, but looking at images she seems set up with a long boom and large genoa for racing.
If you use google images all pics of her are with up to 12 men aboard racing with the toe rail in the water. Stormforces website indicates they have a very full racing season and work the boats hard. I don't know old Cheeky was but fair to say in a season she probably withstood more stresses and strain that a privately owned cruiser does in its lifetime.
I appreciate MCA coding checks and more regular maintenance takes place but how do you check the structural integrity of the keel mounting plate.
It is when all said and done a mass produced, built to a price.
I have just sold my Beneteau 393 that I sailed to Lanzarote in it in big seas.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Under what circumstances would a container float a few feet below the surface? For a start it would be vertically unstable: any slight increase in depth would increase water pressure, squeeze in the flat(tish) faces of the container, reduce its buoyancy and encourage it to sink still further.

I didn't say it would float a few feet under water. I said it would be unlikely to lie level.

Go and get a watertight box from your kitchen. Fill it with enough water so that it is just bobbing on the surface. It won't be level.
Now get a model boat. Roughly aim it at the box. It may hit the box full on. It may hit a submerged part of the box. It may suffer catastrophic damage. It may just have a glancing blow.
Then explain to SWMBO that you haven't gone gaga!

Damn it. I was trying to stay out of the speculation. It's pointless.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

How do you know it was poor manufacturing or design. The 40.7 is a fairly old boat now and we do not know about this particular yachts history, whether it has been heavily grounded in the past etc etc

I used to race Beneteaus hard in shore and offshore and never ever worried about keel design integrity.

Imho your comment is an opinion without any shred of evidence

Don't look to be anywhere near enough keel bolts to me and no evidence of a flange like my heavy old barge has.

 

[Skylark]

I personally think that speculation is fine

as for some-one being successfully sued for a comment on here.... get a grip boys

D

Mr Winter,

Please re-read post number 3. That comment is not speculation.

This site offers useful information regarding on line defamation

https://www.eff.org/issues/bloggers/legal/liability/defamation

The test is "reckless disregard for the truth". I does suggest that it's hard to prove.

With regard to being labelled "Taleban of good taste", I guess I can live with that. It's correctly spelt Taliban, by the way.

 

[dazautomatics]

It’s always interesting to watch adults bickering over a subject like this, just because a comment is made on a design or type of boat, that everybody that has or does not have one of these boats needs to cloud the discussion by defending there decision to purchase this boat, equipment or design…..I remember this from school and I don’t think some individuals on this forum have not gone much passed this level. I remember the post before Christmas which started off about the ARC and quickly turned into a slanging match over the safety of balanced rudders v skeg hung rudders, not in a good way but by people defending there decision to purchase a boat with…...

I’m sure as the previous poster commented, that it’s just a bit of banter like you would get in the bar, but I’m sure that some of the comments here would not be said face to face in a bar or their would be black eyes all round!

Get a grip guys, you purchased your boat and you know in your own mind what she is capable of doing, or not doing. So why continue to be so nasty to your fellow sailors.

And before any attacks start on me for writing this, I have been in a similar scenario with a F10 in Biscay with water ingress from the keel which was moving! and the only reason I am here to write this is because I was close enough to land to get a lift from a helicopter. The one thing this has taught me is NOT to criticise other people’s decisions when things go wrong.

Discuss and learn from what has gone wrong, this is important, but please do this in a respectful way, especially considering the circumstances around why we are discussing this.

Our heart felt condolences to the families and friends of the four sailors. May there spirits continue to sail in calm seas and light winds.

Sorry but I have no time to reply as we are about to depart Antigua for the Azores and we will be keeping a good lookout for the guys, hopefully a miracle will happen.

 

[Sans Bateau]

If the keel was weaked because it had been grounded sufficiently hard enough to lead to its eventual failure, then we should remember it is not the first time a charter boat has been subject to this. Recall the Jeaneau which lost its keel in the Isles of Scilly, that boat IIRC was returned to the charter company, the charterer not mentioning the 'little knock', rather they would protect their deposit. So did this 40.7 suffer a grounding, the charterer 'forgetting' to tell the owner on its return? If this indeed did happen I cannot imagine any deposit being worth the lives of 4 people. In fact the loss of life could be the direct result of someone elses selfishness.

 

[Regatta]

Speculation or not... You can climb Everest with only a rope and a light jacket.
You can cross oceans swimming...or with rowing boat or you can cross ocean with big ship.
The only question we must thinking is : Suitable or not suitable for purpose.
For my opinion B. First 40 is not suitable for purpose . Wreck Photos confirmed my idea.
But at the end I really hope a miracle... and someone find them.

 

[Elessar]

I really dislike threads like this, that come to damning conclusions based on very little real information.

No doubt in the fullness of time more real information will come to light.

My thoughts are with the family, friends and colleagues of the crew that died.

Col, so well put and so right. I agree with you completely.

 

[KristiferColumbus]

Don't look to be anywhere near enough keel bolts to me and no evidence of a flange like my heavy old barge has.

Where can I see those photo's? I would certainly want that weight to be bolted over a very large area.

 

[E39mad]

Don't look to be anywhere near enough keel bolts to me and no evidence of a flange like my heavy old barge has.

Are you a naval architect/design engineer? Have you studied the drawings and technical data for this type of yacht design? If not how do you know?

FWIW I have no affiliation to any particular design BUT have enough experience of both bolt on keels (including an ocean crossing) and encapsulated keeled yachts.

 

[PaulJ]

Another possibility that has not been mentioned is an attack by a whale........ It does happen and the books by the Robertons, the Baileys and Steven Calaghan (to name but three) are all testament to the fact that for reasons best known to themselves, Sperm Whales can on occasion become very aggressive. My wife and I were attacked by a Sperm Whale about 150nm outside the Great Barrier Reef. Damarri is a very strong steel boat steel boat displacing the best part of 20 tonnes, 4mm plate built on heavy frames and with a full-length keel made of 6mm steel. We were both below at the time but the impact was massive. The boat "heaved" bodily sideways and all the woodwork creaked but otherwise she seemed ok and we continued on our way. I shot up into the cockpit and saw a not particularly big (40ft ish?) Sperm Whale looking somewhat stunned in our wake. On reaching Australia we hauled out and the dent in the side indicated that he had "T-boned" us exactly amidships.

That impact, just slightly lower, would certainly have torn the keel off any fin keeled boat.........

Perhaps Cheeky was already damaged (taking in water) and sailing slowly which may have made her even more vulnerable to such an attack?
We will probably never know.........

Paul

 

[Daydream believer]

Jumping to conclusions aren't you? We don't know that it was keel failure. The keel hadn't broken but had come right off and the hull was holed in the process. Perhaps a container ripped it off. Perhaps a container would rip my keel off. Who knows. It doesn't make Benes any more unsafe than other AWBs.

Fact is - whether you like it or not- the keel ain't there
speculation about it being knocked of by a container may be the cause but on an ocean going boat should it actually do that
In my younger days I sailed my boat into most of the sandbanks in the Thames estuary & one day i actually sailed it up the concrete sea wall near Burnham on Crouch so half the boat was out of the water
But at no point did I wonder if the keel would fall off- More about how to get off without anyone knowing
I motored my current boat into rocks at 6.2 kts & it stopped dead- I did not though- But there is absolutely no sign of damage other than the antifoul being scraped
The point about this is that people do actually run aground & hit things so surely designers should allow for it

One other point is that on the other thread a delivery company queried the experience of the skipper at 21 years of age
Now I am one of those that say that if you are good enough then you are old enough, so whilst i might ask questions ,I cannot criticise his decisions as I was not there

But i cannot help wondering how - when a boat starts leaking, a keel problem was not ( certainly was not considered by them in dispatches as far as I am aware) mentioned
If my boat starts leaking I think i would look at - Seacocks- Rudder tube- hatches & windows-collision holes-& then keel bolts- although in panic mode that might be in a different order. But I keep my liferaft in the cockpit, i think I would cut the straps on it ready to get it free. If it was in a locker would one not get it into the cockpit?

If the keel was beginning to fall off how would it happen. Surely it would waggle about a bit first then a couple of bolts might pop
If a skipper was experienced would he not notice that? & that might be the reason another delivery skipper spoke about experience only being gained by sea miles ( a comment for which he was berated)
Once the keel disappears one has seconds to act & worry about getting those below up on deck first may have delayed life raft deployment. But even then , if it has sails up the boat would lay on its side for a while until the air trapped by the sail is released.

The fact that the boat was reported as leaking suggests that the keel was becoming loose over a period of time & was not an immediate failure cause by hitting a container. Although that may have started the problem. But there does not appear to be any mention of this & one would have thought there would be. You do not hit something & just report a leak . You say you are leaking because you hit a b..y container

Loads of questions, for which there will be no answer. But as others have said it is good to have speculation & not at all negative, as it prepares others for such a scenario. I am already thinking through about how I would react if a leak started & what i should do after the initial " don't panic" -- Carry on pancking I suspect

 

[mainsail1]

Well done Dylan, nicely put. There seems to be a bit of self righteous hysteria around at the moment.

I personally think that speculation is fine

it is the first draft of history

and where better to speculate than here

run a few theories around the houses


it seems to me the family will no doubt be thinking along the same lines if they are sailors themselves

I doubt very much that they will be reading this thread

I think that some of you guys think that this internet chat room - one of thousands devoted to sailing- is of more importance than it is

this is nothing more than a bit of bar room chat among a group of old sailors

and nothing wrong with that I reckon

as for some-one being successfully sued for a comment on here.... get a grip boys

D

 

[lustyd]

Not wishing to be insensitive, but the yacht didn't sink due to loss of keel. It didn't sink at all. I would say the boat did admirably in a situation it wasn't designed for, assuming that it was in fact not designed to float upside down without a keel. My conclusion is that the boat was perfectly fit for the passage, or at least the design was even if this specimen had previously been weakened.

Someone earlier said you'd know it if you hit a container - the skipper of Polbream didn't know he'd hit a rock and lost the keel. He described it like bumping the ground briefly and then carrying on as normal, including sailing back from the Scillies. The instructor who sailed it the following week didn't notice a lack of keel for a few days either, so it's entirely reasonable to believe they hit something and were unaware of the severity.