Beneteau First lost her keel, four good men lost at sea.

EugeneR said:
Am I the only one to observe a spot of rust around the aft keel bolt on the pictures of CR's hull?
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NO that was the first thing I spotted, it made me wonder if the aft keel bolt had been broken for some time (and perhaps a couple of the front ones). The heavy weather perhaps made the keel flex on the remaining bolts causing water ingress until catastrophic failure. The shattered windows baffled me, I sincerely hope it wasn't someone trapped inside trying to escape.
 
As there has been no diver inside the wreck (only a surface swimmer reached in - they aren't divers) is it possible there may be bodies inside? I can't see how the wreck could be recovered but will divers be sent in to look?
 
It is stupid to disagree with the experts that post in here regarding the poor design and weakness that a bolt on keel gives.

I am also an expert and note that many more ships have been lost through tears in their steel hulls, Titanic and Costa Concordia immediately spring to mine with great loss of lives. Obviously steel hulls are totally unsafe and unsuitable for Ocean crossings. Old solid designs are best and it must be obvious that as wood floats its a better material.

Now where did I leave my sense of proportion??

On a more serious note I hope USCG took close up photos of the keel bolt position and damage areas sufficient for the MAIB.

Some more info on sensible checking of keel bolts if practical.
 
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Sailfree said:
It is stupid to disagree with the experts that post in here regarding the poor design and weakness that a bolt on keel gives.
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I had a Westerly with a 1/2 tonne fin-and-bulb keel which was help on by two rows of eight 3/4" stainless steel bolts. It surprises me to see how much less steel is used to attach the keels on more modern yachts ... but since keels very, very rarely fall off I presume that Westerly grossly overengineered things and modern designers, probably because they have access to much better stress modelling tools, can specify things far more accurately.
 
JumbleDuck said:
I had a Westerly with a 1/2 tonne fin-and-bulb keel which was help on by two rows of eight 3/4" stainless steel bolts. It surprises me to see how much less steel is used to attach the keels on more modern yachts ... but since keels very, very rarely fall off I presume that Westerly grossly overengineered things and modern designers, probably because they have access to much better stress modelling tools, can specify things far more accurately.
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As Structural Engineer I confirm that IMHO you are right but mistake can happen. Just look at the amount of steel in modern bridges compared to the heavy steelwork and massively bolted/riveted connections in old structures. However failures do occur as Westgate bridge and others demonstrate. Cars have got lighter yet stronger and protect passenger better now.

One question that may arise is what magnitude of force from an impact or grounding should a keel resist.
 
JumbleDuck;47693I said:
I had a Westerly with a 1/2 tonne fin-and-bulb keel which was help on by two rows of eight 3/4" stainless steel bolts. It surprises me to see how much less steel is used to attach the keels on more modern yachts ... but since keels very, very rarely fall off I presume that Westerly grossly overengineered things and modern designers, probably because they have access to much better stress modelling tools, can specify things far more accurately.
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We had a club member moons ago who left a Westerly Centaur keel parked on the rock ledge by Old Harry Rocks/Studland bay when passing too closeinshore, Fulmars too had a reputation for poor keel attachment on the twin keel version that especially didn't like being grounded in soft mud on a drying mooring. I owned and loved a Westerly 33 FIN keeled ketch for 14 years and it was heftily built but it had some stupid bits in it's build too, plus word on the water was that Fulmar keel attachments were not done properly to the designer's specification, hence the later problems arising that IIRC required additional stiffening 'floors to be glassed in as keel supports. THen there were the westerly chain plates on Centaurs that spanned the coachroof windows and on one occasion I saw personally resulted in the chaIN PLATE and half the cabin to being pulled off and dropping the mast over the sideas a result, this happened in a F7 close to inshore rocks and the boat and crew were rescued by Weymouth lifeboat, we were one of two boats that stood by and later escorted the Centaur under engine back to it's home mooring.
 
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Robin said:
II owned and loved a Westerly 33 FIN keeled ketch for 14 years and it was heftily built but it had some stupid bits in it's build too...
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Those sixteen bolts on my Westerly attached the flange on top of the keel to a recess in the hull, for about an inch round which the layup was very slightly increased in thickness. Dreadfull deisgn: nothing was going to take the keel off the GRP, but it would have been far too easy to take keel, backing plate and a neat rectangle of hull off. Twenty feet of 1/4" x 2" stainless strip, five kilogrammes of epoxy resin, several gallons of polyester resin and a hundred square feet of CSM and woven rove dealt with that, but it took time.
 
Sailfree said:
As Structural Engineer I confirm that IMHO you are right but mistake can happen. Just look at the amount of steel in modern bridges compared to the heavy steelwork and massively bolted/riveted connections in old structures. However failures do occur as Westgate bridge and others demonstrate. Cars have got lighter yet stronger and protect passenger better now.
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Isn't that as much to do with improvements in metallurgy as design? Certainly a modern car uses more sophisticated steels than 40 or 50 years ago.
 
Sailfree said:
As Structural Engineer I confirm that IMHO you are right but mistake can happen. Just look at the amount of steel in modern bridges compared to the heavy steelwork and massively bolted/riveted connections in old structures. However failures do occur as Westgate bridge and others demonstrate. Cars have got lighter yet stronger and protect passenger better now.

One question that may arise is what magnitude of force from an impact or grounding should a keel resist.
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Another case of the true Satans, the Accountants, being the root cause, then?

They skew the true meaning of "Fit for Purpose" with their obscene Bean Counting. Thank God they aren't allowed anywhere near the RNLI's spec-ing department. Give me honest "over-engineering" ANY time and that goes for building construction too.
 
Steve C Cronin said:
Another case of the true Satans, the Accountants, being the root cause, then?

They skew the true meaning of "Fit for Purpose" with their obscene Bean Counting. Thank God they aren't allowed anywhere near the RNLI's spec-ing department. Give me honest "over-engineering" ANY time and that goes for building construction too.
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I'll second that
 
Robin said:
THen there were the westerly chain plates on Centaurs that spanned the coachroof windows and on one occasion I saw personally resulted in the chaIN PLATE and half the cabin to being pulled off and dropping the mast over the sideas a result, this happened in a F7 close to inshore rocks and the boat and crew were rescued by Weymouth lifeboat, we were one of two boats that stood by and later escorted the Centaur under engine back to it's home mooring.
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I hope Dylan is not reading that
 
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