Beneteau 760 steering and rudder problems

spray said:
Thank you for your helpful advice. I cannot prize the top bearing and I have tried tapping the rudder but it won’t budge. I saw on Youtube tonight about clamping a plank on the rudder giving great leverage and getting someone to waggle the rudder while it is tapped from above. Up to now I have been single handed but if I can get someone to help, I will try this tomorrow if you think it’s a good idea. Do I need to remove the lower tophat on the hull? (Not the sleg, that is removed) I welcome your feedback.
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I don't see how you could remove the "lower tophat" bearing with the rudder in place. From outside the boat if you move the rudder side to side (even though it is stff) does that lower tophat bearing stay still or is it rotating in the hull? If it stays still that is good, do not touch it. Now mark the top bush, go outside and move the ridder, go back in and see if the top bush moved with the rudder stock (given the retaining screws are out) or did the stock move inside the bush. Just trying to understand relative movements and which bearing is the stiff one.....
 
Plum said:
I don't see how you could remove the "lower tophat" bearing with the rudder in place. From outside the boat if you move the rudder side to side (even though it is stff) does that lower tophat bearing stay still or is it rotating in the hull? If it stays still that is good, do not touch it. Now mark the top bush, go outside and move the ridder, go back in and see if the top bush moved with the rudder stock (given the retaining screws are out) or did the stock move inside the bush. Just trying to understand relative movements and which bearing is the stiff one.....
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Again many thanks to you Plum. What I meant was to remove the lower bush retaining screws so the bearing was free to come out with the rudder. I will do as you suggest and report back. If I find the upper bearing moves with the stock, would it be wise to hammer on the stock to remove the rudder? Thanks.
 
spray said:
Again many thanks to you Plum. What I meant was to remove the lower bush retaining screws so the bearing was free to come out with the rudder. I will do as you suggest and report back. If I find the upper bearing moves with the stock, would it be wise to hammer on the stock to remove the rudder? Thanks.
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I never like hammering on a boat. If you remove the emergency tiller access plug maybe insert a length of wood so it bears on the top of the rudder stock and stand on it while someone outside waggles the rudder?
 
Plum said:
I never like hammering on a boat. If you remove the emergency tiller access plug maybe insert a length of wood so it bears on the top of the rudder stock and stand on it while someone outside waggles the rudder?
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Yes hammering was the wrong word, I meant tapping but your suggestion is better. Hopefully I will have some better news to tell soon. Thanks again.
 
spray said:
Yes hammering was the wrong word, I meant tapping but your suggestion is better. Hopefully I will have some better news to tell soon. Thanks again.
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The rudder is removed. There doesn’t appear to be any damage to the shaft or bearings. The shaft was tight in both bearings on removal. The bearings did not turn when I waggled the rudder.
Water was present. Problem now is I cannot remove either bearing, they are sealed in with probably Sika. Tomorrow I will try tapping them out but I don’t want to damage them. An alternative is perhaps borrow a puller. If I tap them out the seal I expect will be damaged but I will replace them anyway, any suggestions please?
 
spray said:
The rudder is removed. There doesn’t appear to be any damage to the shaft or bearings. The shaft was tight in both bearings on removal. The bearings did not turn when I waggled the rudder.
Water was present. Problem now is I cannot remove either bearing, they are sealed in with probably Sika. Tomorrow I will try tapping them out but I don’t want to damage them. An alternative is perhaps borrow a puller. If I tap them out the seal I expect will be damaged but I will replace them anyway, any suggestions please?
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Only the top bearing has a lip seal. Can you identify which bearing was the stiff one? Is there an alignment problem? Is the rudder stock straight? Does the stock now slide up smoothly through the lower bearing? The most likely is the seal as Paul mentioned earlier. If so. That top bearing has to come out and probably got some mastic on it. I refitted mine with mastic as the bearing has to be sealed to the grp tube that is inside the big white moulding and only visible once the bearing is out. Can you insert something up from underneath that presses on the lower rim of the bearing and put a car jack under that to carefully push up?
 
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Plum said:
Only the top bearing has a lip seal. Can you identify which bearing was the stiff one? Is there an alignment problem? Is the rudder stock straight? Does the stock now slide up smoothly through the lower bearing? The most likely is the seal as Paul mentioned earlier. If so. That top bearing has to come out and probably got some mastic on it. I refitted mine with mastic as the bearing has to be sealed to the grp tube that is inside the big white moulding and only visible once the bearing is out. Can you insert something up from underneath that presses on the lower rim of the bearing and put a car jack under that to carefully push up?
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I cannot identify which bearing is at fault, the stock was still tight coming out of the lower bearing. I think alignment is good and the stock is straight.
There appears to be by feel, a seal on each bearing, the type mentioned earlier, a garter seal. Tomorrow I will try to jack out the top seal. Should I then remove the lower bearing? This is the schematic from Beneteau Many thanks 1719500139332.jpeg
 
spray said:
I cannot identify which bearing is at fault, the stock was still tight coming out of the lower bearing. I think alignment is good and the stock is straight.
There appears to be by feel, a seal on each bearing, the type mentioned earlier, a garter seal. Tomorrow I will try to jack out the top seal. Should I then remove the lower bearing? This is the schematic from Beneteau Many thanks View attachment 179110
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I have never removed my lower bearing (No. 12) but why would there be a seal inside it if there is a seal in the upper bearing? I would be interested in what you find. Still a mystery as to why your rudder is so stiff in both the bearings and why the skeg bearing has worn like it has. I've spoken to many other owners who have not mentioned this as a problem and only two I have come across online. My 760 is 25 years old and no problem with the rudder (other than the lip seal in the top bearing which is above the waterline so only leaked in a rough sea when water was being forced up the rudder stock tube).
 
Plum said:
I have never removed my lower bearing (No. 12) but why would there be a seal inside it if there is a seal in the upper bearing? I would be interested in what you find. Still a mystery as to why your rudder is so stiff in both the bearings and why the skeg bearing has worn like it has. I've spoken to many other owners who have not mentioned this as a problem and only two I have come across online. My 760 is 25 years old and no problem with the rudder (other than the lip seal in the top bearing which is above the waterline so only leaked in a rough sea when water was being forced up the rudder stock tube).
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Thanks for your comments, I can only suggest that two seals are better than one, I may be wrong and there is only one seal.
Could you tell me where you purchased the seals from? Hopefully I will be able to remove the top bearing tomorrow and shed some light on this.
 
spray said:
Thanks for your comments, I can only suggest that two seals are better than one, I may be wrong and there is only one seal.
Could you tell me where you purchased the seals from? Hopefully I will be able to remove the top bearing tomorrow and shed some light on this.
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Actually, in this situation, 2 seals are not better than 1 ☺️. Anyway, got my lip seal from here as the shop is only 15mins from my house Essex Bearings and Transmission - Bearing & Transmission Specialits . Lots of similar shops all over. The basic seals normally come with a plain steel garter spring, but at my shop, they stock stainless steel garter springs separately and the guy just swaps them over. paid £4 in 2016
 
spray said:
Thanks for your comments, I can only suggest that two seals are better than one, I may be wrong and there is only one seal.
Could you tell me where you purchased the seals from? Hopefully I will be able to remove the top bearing tomorrow and shed some light on this.
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When I removed my top bearing to replace the lip seal I could not see how to get the old seal out but looking extremely close found there was a snap-out plastic ring holding it in, The ring was such a good fit and of the same material as the bearing they appeared to be all one piece. Snap it out carefully so it can be reused.
 
Plum said:
When I removed my top bearing to replace the lip seal I could not see how to get the old seal out but looking extremely close found there was a snap-out plastic ring holding it in, The ring was such a good fit and of the same material as the bearing they appeared to be all one piece. Snap it out carefully so it can be reused.
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Great advice thanks. I’ll order a seal 40-52-7 , does it need to be Vitron?
 
spray said:
Great advice thanks. I’ll order a seal 40-52-7 , does it need to be Vitron?
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Nitrile, a common material for seals and more likely to be found, will be perfectly adequate. Viton is a more expensive material with superior resistance to certain liquids and high temperatures, will also be adequate but an overkill.
 
Plum said:
Nitrile, a common material for seals and more likely to be found, will be perfectly adequate. Viton is a more expensive material with superior resistance to certain liquids and high temperatures, will also be adequate but an overkill.
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Plum, you have been very helpful, thank you.
 
Plum said:
Can you insert something up from underneath that presses on the lower rim of the bearing and put a car jack under that to carefully push up?
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Just a thought, does the seal butt up tight to the bearing? I’m just thinking that in trying to push the bearing out , I might be pushing on the seal and possibly breaking the retaining clip.
 
spray said:
Just a thought, does the seal butt up tight to the bearing? I’m just thinking that in trying to push the bearing out , I might be pushing on the seal and possibly breaking the retaining clip.
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Sorry can't remember whether the seal is close to the top or bottom face of the seal.
 
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