Beneteau 760 steering and rudder problems

[spray]

Sorry can't remember whether the seal is close to the top or bottom face of the seal.

No problem, thanks anyway. I’m thinking that the lower bearing might be at fault as the rudder remained fairly tight during the last few cms of removal. I will try and borrow an endoscope to see what is going on. This job is more challenging than I expected.

 

[spray]

No problem, thanks anyway. I’m thinking that the lower bearing might be at fault as the rudder remained fairly tight during the last few cms of removal. I will try and borrow an endoscope to see what is going on. This job is more challenging than I expected.

Top bearing finally removed with the seal, I cannot see how the retaining clip can be removed. I would think (hope) that the seal can be just prised out.
The bottom bearing is proving difficult if not impossible to remove and it has a seal pretty much identical to the top one. Plum said #50 that 2 seals are not better than one. Is this my problem, should I just prise this seal out and leave as is? I have tried the top bearing on the shaft and it is a good fit.

 

[spray]

 

[Plum]

View attachment 179206
Top bearing finally removed with the seal, I cannot see how the retaining clip can be removed. I would think (hope) that the seal can be just prised out.
The bottom bearing is proving difficult if not impossible to remove and it has a seal pretty much identical to the top one. Plum said #50 that 2 seals are not better than one. Is this my problem, should I just prise this seal out and leave as is? I have tried the top bearing on the shaft and it is a good fit.

Suggest you do not try to prize the seal out if it is the usual type that has a metal ring inside the rubber moulding. You can see the plastic snap-out ring which in your photo looks to be a slightly different colour. You won't get a new seal in until that retainling ring is out. Once you have that ring out, then the seal, you will be able to see how free to turn the bearing is on the stock.

 

[spray]

Suggest you do not try to prize the seal out if it is the usual type that has a metal ring inside the rubber moulding. You can see the plastic snap-out ring which in your photo looks to be a slightly different colour. You won't get a new seal in until that retainling ring is out. Once you have that ring out, then the seal, you will be able to see how free to turn the bearing is on the stock.

Thanks for sticking with me on this Plum, your help is much appreciated.
I managed to remove the snap out ring, immersing in boiling water helped.
The bearing is free to rotate on the shaft.
I’m going to really struggle to remove the lower bearing without causing damage.
To remove the lower seal from this bearing I will have to break the clip and it will be very difficult to replace in situ. Therefore I plan to remove the lower bearing seal, discard and just reinstall the rudder with the two bearings with only the top one having a seal, what do you think?

 

[Plum]

Thanks for sticking with me on this Plum, your help is much appreciated.
I managed to remove the snap out ring, immersing in boiling water helped.
The bearing is free to rotate on the shaft.
I’m going to really struggle to remove the lower bearing without causing damage.
To remove the lower seal from this bearing I will have to break the clip and it will be very difficult to replace in situ. Therefore I plan to remove the lower bearing seal, discard and just reinstall the rudder with the two bearings with only the top one having a seal, what do you think?

Glad you are making progress and it appears the bearings are OK. It is a mystery as to why the two lip seals are making the rudder so stiff. Can't advise on whether to dispense with the lower seal. Here is the theory: lip seals (and o-rings) wear quickly when dry, they need a lubricant, even water, so if the lower seal does a good job of stopping the water from coming up the rudder stock tube then the top seal will be dry and wear quickly. However, the Beneteau designer may have had a reason.....

 

[spray]

Glad you are making progress and it appears the bearings are OK. It is a mystery as to why the two lip seals are making the rudder so stiff. Can't advise on whether to dispense with the lower seal. Here is the theory: lip seals (and o-rings) wear quickly when dry, they need a lubricant, even water, so if the lower seal does a good job of stopping the water from coming up the rudder stock tube then the top seal will be dry and wear quickly. However, the Beneteau designer may have had a reason.....

Thanks Plum.
Looking at the B parts list, both top and bottom bearings are supplied with a gasket (seal). I think that I will remove the lower seal, replace the upper with a new seal and reinstall the rudder and see how I go with just one seal. The top seal being well above the water line I cannot see what harm this will do. I agree that seals do need lubrication whether it is water or oil, and with a lower seal, the top one gets starved of it’s lubrication.
I have so far found no reason for the rudder to be so stiff, nothing looks bent or misaligned.

 

[Plum]

Thanks Plum.
Looking at the B parts list, both top and bottom bearings are supplied with a gasket (seal). I think that I will remove the lower seal, replace the upper with a new seal and reinstall the rudder and see how I go with just one seal. The top seal being well above the water line I cannot see what harm this will do. I agree that seals do need lubrication whether it is water or oil, and with a lower seal, the top one gets starved of it’s lubrication.
I have so far found no reason for the rudder to be so stiff, nothing looks bent or misaligned.

I would appreciate a copy of that parts list, please.
On mine, when I reinstalled the top bearing, it slides inside the rudder stock tube so i smeared mastic on the OUTSIDE of the bearing to form a watertight seal, without which I believe water would end up in the void below the GRP moulding the bearing sits in. Is you say, the rubber stock tube/top bearing is above the static water level but I was getting water in the boat that bypassed the worn top seal when in rough water. The new seal completely solved this problem. I have no idea whether I have a lower seal or not or what condition it may be in

 

[spray]

I would appreciate a copy of that parts list, please.
On mine, when I reinstalled the top bearing, it slides inside the rudder stock tube so i smeared mastic on the OUTSIDE of the bearing to form a watertight seal, without which I believe water would end up in the void below the GRP moulding the bearing sits in. Is you say, the rubber stock tube/top bearing is above the static water level but I was getting water in the boat that bypassed the worn top seal when in rough water. The new seal completely solved this problem. I have no idea whether I have a lower seal or not or what condition it may be in

All I received from my dealer was the rudder parts diagram (posted earlier)and a pricing as follows:
Thank you for your enquiry for your Antares 760.
I am pleased to outline the rudder bearings for the Antares. These are as follows
1 Top shoulder ring with gasket. £92.00
2 Rudder tube (I don’t think you will necessarily need this). £55.60
3 Bottom shoulder ring with gasket. £92.00

4 Compensation ring (Larger washer between rudder and skeg). £13.50

Transit to Fox’s including customs and packing. £60.70
—————————-
I have no idea about item 2, it’s not on my boat especially after giving Beneteau the serial number of build. I’m not impressed with Beneteau on this and when I asked about the skeg bearing I was told that I had to buy a new. Skeg around £500, since then I was shown a bearing insert by them that was clearly the wrong part.
I wish I could remove the lower bearing but it’s stuck fast with Sika or similar and I don’t think I can install a new seal in situ so I will remove the old seal and reinstall the rudder without the lower seal.



The above figures are all subject to an additional 20% VAT.

 

[Plum]

All I received from my dealer was the rudder parts diagram (posted earlier)and a pricing as follows:
Thank you for your enquiry for your Antares 760.
I am pleased to outline the rudder bearings for the Antares. These are as follows
1 Top shoulder ring with gasket. £92.00
2 Rudder tube (I don’t think you will necessarily need this). £55.60
3 Bottom shoulder ring with gasket. £92.00

4 Compensation ring (Larger washer between rudder and skeg). £13.50

Transit to Fox’s including customs and packing. £60.70
—————————-
I have no idea about item 2, it’s not on my boat especially after giving Beneteau the serial number of build. I’m not impressed with Beneteau on this and when I asked about the skeg bearing I was told that I had to buy a new. Skeg around £500, since then I was shown a bearing insert by them that was clearly the wrong part.
I wish I could remove the lower bearing but it’s stuck fast with Sika or similar and I don’t think I can install a new seal in situ so I will remove the old seal and reinstall the rudder without the lower seal.



The above figures are all subject to an additional 20% VAT.

The tube they refer to may be the rudder stock tube that the two bearings are bonded in to?

 

[spray]

The tube they refer to may be the rudder stock tube that the two bearings are bonded in to?

Agreed, I have made a puller which hopefully will remove the lower bearing. I have ordered a lower bearing and a skeg bearing which I might receive by the end of this week. I will post photos and part numbers.
The seals I think are more like 8mm than 7 IMO.

 

[Plum]

Agreed, I have made a puller which hopefully will remove the lower bearing. I have ordered a lower bearing and a skeg bearing which I might receive by the end of this week. I will post photos and part numbers.
The seals I think are more like 8mm than 7 IMO.

the seal size is often moulded in to the black rubber

 

[spray]

You’re correct Plum, it is 40-52-7 , thanks.

 

[tomaz_slo]

@spray, read it today… Had both bearings changed 20 months ago.. Both had seals. Both are the same and glued on GRP with Sika. Don’t pull then out, just cut mastic with spatula all around… And the are also four bolts there…

 

[tomaz_slo]

Comment about stiffness. If you hit with skeg protection to a rock, you might bend it without bend the rudder shaft. And you might have stiffed rudder from that reason.

 

[spray]

I finally finished reinstalling the rudder today and it works great.It has been a struggle particularly removing the lower bearing which was binding the shaft and it was glued with Sika or similar, not only on the flange but in the bore as well. I ended up making multiple saw cuts longitudinally in the bearing bore before it could be removed, using care in not cutting the sleeve.The top bearing was replaced and I think the main problem was that the lower bearing had swelled over time. The parts replaced were lower bearing, skeg bearing and spacer washer, cost £310 from Beneteau and I will post the part numbers shortly.


Thank you to all the posters on this thread in particular Plum, you have all been very helpful.

 

[spray]

The part numbers I was given:
Lower bearing with seal: D58X40X60HT
Skeg bearing: 050X 30X10 61056
Spacer washer: 61056
The descriptions on their packets don’t really match, so please check before ordering.

 

[Pleinmont]

That sounded particularly traumatic Spray! Well done for getting it sorted and many thanks for posting the part numbers and the methods you had to employ.
Hopefully you never have to do that again!
I've bookmarked this in case I have to go through the same process.

Also thanks to Plum as usual for expert 760 advice