Bemused Day Skipper candidate

[walker]

Did the first of a two weekend day skipper course this weekend. In the Solent. Conditions could not have been better. Had a wonderful sail from Portsmouth to Cowes Saturday afternoon. Close hauled - could have done with a reef imho but instructor did not want to put one in with an inexperienced crew (I thought we were there to learn) so a bit spoilt by regular screwing into wind in the gusts.

Yesterday afternoon the breeze got up again and I was looking forward to a really exhilerating sail back. Instructor decided that as we needed to make good time we would motor because the wind was over the tide!? All the way. Not even motor sail so we had a long, boring, rolly, massively disappointing and really a wasted afternoon. I simply cannot understand the logic - we maintained around 8 knots under sail the whole way on Saturday. On the way back on a reach in a F4 I am sure we cold have matched that. Instead we did 7 knots under motor.

A number of other incidents over the weekend that I found alarming are leading me to my own conclusion but before firmly filing this incident with them, I thought I might get a second (and any subsequent) opinions.

A few of those other incidents that caused me to question what liuttle bit I thought I did know include "It is vitally important on a boat that we know where the sea cocks are, so we'll do that next weekend"! Ditto MOB. Ditto reefing. Two near collisions and emergency evasive actions with him grabbing tiller from newbies hands having instructed them to stand on when we were clearly the give way boat - acknowledged afterwards by instructor but "It was b****y rude of them [under sail while we were motoring] to expect us to give way"! Turning 90 degrees to starboard and across the bows of an approaching yacht that would have passed harmlessly 30+ metres to starboard to pass it port to port; in the middle of the Solent. Telling us then confirming the next day having checked" that the log reads speed over the ground (no GPS or fancy electronics - how does it do that then?). There were many, many more such examples and the whole weekend was rather surreal.

Unfortunately I need my certificate quickly so will have to do next weekend but I am now quite anxious about it. Its a particular shame because the instructor seems a nice bloke but I think it is my duty to other would be clients to report the whole thing to the sailing school proprietors, once I have got my certificate firmly in my hand.

I should have stuck with Southern Sailing but I heard that some of their skippers won't let you moor near a pub in the evenings, and that would be a real disaster!




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[Talbot]

sound very strange, but think I would have done like you - get the piece of paper in hand and then cause waves!

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[bedouin]

Sounds very strange - I thought the Day Skipper course was a minimum of three weekends!

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[dralex]

That sounds pretty bad- to do the day skipper practical, candidates need a set minimum boat experience and so should be capable of at least helping to put a reef in. I am very surprised at the instructor as it's a fairly basic thing to do, even with inexperienced crew. When I did my day skipper practical a few years ago with BOSS, I was expecting a lot of sailing. I discussed this with the instructor who explained the ethos behind the dayskipper is for everyone on the course to get a chance to do all the practical skills and practice them eg picking up moorings, coming alongside, MOB drills. At the end of the course, I felt I had learnt a huge amount about boat handling and safety- the sailing is the easy bit, but also very time intensive to do well and only comes with experience and trial and error. I assume the school is RYA approved. I would definately let them know as it may be just that instructor.

<hr width=100% size=1>Life's too short- do it now.

 

[jimi]

Sounds extremely strange .. IMHO one of the first things an inexperienced crew should learn is how to put a reef in!

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[jamesjermain]

Taking what you say at face value, I would say this instructor was not demonstrating the required level of competence. He should be an RYA qualfied instructor and the school should be RYA recognised so the Association should be informed. However, before recommending you take such action, I would want to check both sides of the story.

<hr width=100% size=1>JJ

 

[boatless]

I sailed with a YM instructor a few times, and also found some dreadful holes in their knowledge.

I think that you must report it to the school boss, and if you're not happy with their response, the RYA would want to know (I hope).

Good luck - I once wrote to the MD of Sunsail to point out that ALL of the hydrostatic releases on every boat I could see at Port Solent were fitted so that the liferaft would not launch - never even replied.

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.

 

[bedouin]

I presume Sunsail use that arrangement so they don't loose the liferaft in the situation where two of their boats collide and one sinks /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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[StugeronSteve]

They're npt really life rafts. The raft like cannister is infact a cunning stability device which keeps the boat upright in the event of sinking.

<hr width=100% size=1>Semper Bufo

 

[walker]

I wouldn't expect anyone to take action in a case like this on the basis of what I say alone, but for the sake of this discussion you can take it that what I have said is as objective a summary as I am able to give of those incidents. There were many more incidents that were less scary but which to me suggested a lack of the level of competence in simple boathandling, never mind instructing, that I would expect of an instructor. Things like numerous changes of direction for no compelling reason that required immediate corrective action. I might add that I have no axe to grind here - I really like the instructor as a bloke, socially we had a good weekend, sitting up nattering 'til the early hours, so it really would pain me to take any action that might negatively impact on him - to the extent that I have considered letting it go. But, unless the little prior knowledge I thought I brought to the course was entirely wrong, I think he needs some retraining and I do not think it would be right for me to turn a blind eye.

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[boatless]

Well that's one good theory, wonder what others the panel can come up with?

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.

 

[jimbouy]

two weekends? I too also thought it could only be done in three, i suppose it depends how long a weekend is.

Anyway I just did the second of three weekends, with a different skipper for each. Whilst I can't comment on your experiences I can say that i have found "differences" between skippers and also from what I think I know and even what I have read.

I take the view that it is all experience on which one can build.

But if you feel strongly report it, I would.

Jimbouy

<hr width=100% size=1> "It is a pleasure to give advice, humiliating to need it, normal to ignore it"

 

[walker]

5, or 2 + 3 days seems pretty standard if you've the requisite prior experience.

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[aod]

hmmm...........doesn't sound at all good and indeed on the face of it I would suspect the skipper has a personal confidence issue.

It would be interesting to know who the school is and whether the skipper is a zero to hero bloke?

Trouble is when some schools only pay their skippers £67 per day anyone who is worth a carrot would stick two fingers up and go and stack shelves at Safeways for more money and less hassle.

I can't really see any reason why anyone applying for a course couldn't ask who the skipper is and what experience they have. In other words what is the skippers C.V.

After all you are a customer so have the choice to shop around. Any school worth it's salt would offer the information safe in the knowledge that their skippers are up to the mark.

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[jamesjermain]

mealy mouthed

Fair do's, I wasn't realy doubting you, just covering my back.

<hr width=100% size=1>JJ

 

[walker]

Re: mealy mouthed

No worries, and you were probably right to do so.

I'd be interested on your views on the best way to handle the others on the boat who do not have even the minimal prior knowledge required to suspect something is amiss and therefore hang on the instructor's every word. They are going to leave with some strange ideas.

A loud internal voice is saying 'mind your own b****y business - chances are no harm will be done'. If I were a capable enough sailor myself I might suggest a pint at the end of the course and chat things through with them, but I am not. And the last thing I want to do is to undermine their confidence and sense of achievement at having 'passed'.

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[subtuna]

I am sorry you have had such a bad time. I work part time as an instructor. What you have described horrifies me. Some of things you have said do not fit with any way most sailing schools I know work. If you would like some more info drop me a private line.
I am off to Spain at the end of the week so please do so sooner rather than later.
I will try to give you the best advice I can.

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[VicS]

Many years ago I had some slightly less than satisfactory experiences on a Yachtmaster course. We discussed the possibility of making some form of complaint to the school but decided against it.

Your problems sound much more serious and really worth complaining about but I would suggest that you should discuss your feelings with your fellow students and complain if you all, or at least the majority of you, agree but otherwise let it go.

If you have a debriefing at the end of the course it may give you the opportunity to discuss the issues that troubled you with the instructor. There may be good reasons for his decisions and such a discussion would give him the chance to explain them to you. Alternatively chat about it over a pint on the next weekend, taking the line "I've been thinking about some of the things we did last week and I was wondering if you could explain in more detail why.......".


<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple>Ne te confundant illegitimi.</font color=purple>

 

[Peppermint]

Re: If you sat up

late you must have got some idea what his background was. Did he have much of a track record?

I think you should have leaned on him a bit at the time. But thats just my way.

What did your shipmates think?

As to action. Firstly I'd sound out the school to see if it's him you've got again next time. If your really unhappy tell the school. If they don't listen or do nothing tell the RYA.

If you let it go he could put a lot of people off training or even off sailing.

As to Southern not mooring near a bar well I couldn't comment for Day Skipper but for YM you start early and finish late, anchor in out of the way places and drink what you take with you, which was plenty on our boat. We managed a couple of marina nights in the week but you don't miss them if you don't get them cos your busy. We did manage a couple of pints and a kebab during our YM exam though.

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[walker]

Re: If you sat up

I know we do have him next time. Found out a great deal about his supposed 'background'. The civvy bits sounded plausible but the sailing bits just do not fit. Don't want to say too much for fear of identifying which I do not want to do, but extensive professional experience in positions of responsibility in rtw races, superyachts, all figure and don't fit in with getting windy in ideal conditions on the Solent. I can't help wondering if the whole lot is fantasy.

I feel a bit cowardly but did not push him despite scepticism because I need the certificate and can ill afford the time/money to retake. I have purposely not discussed with other students - they are a lovely bunch but more or less completely green and I do not want to sow discontent nor spoil their experience.

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