Bayesian Interim Report

RunAgroundHard said:
Which is what happened when a crew member was pulled through a 12" hole and killed becuase the winch overload mechanism was set at 10 ton on a non man riding winch. It used to be a high incident activity in the drilling industry, lifting personnel, but incidents are way, way down because of better controls designed to manage the risk of operator confusion. 150t cranes are also used for man lifting, personal transfer where the cranes are certified for lifting personnel with various processes and controls required to be in place. You can imagine what would happen to a bunch of people in a man lifting basket that catches on a structure and the crane pulls to 150t. A lot of rules are established out of blood, guts and death because owners and operators of vessels were cheapskates who only thought about profit and considered people expendable and easily replaced.
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All the more reason to put warning signs in plain English
 
Seriously though Bouba, the cranes and davits on a commercial super-yacht are going to be operated by her professional crew, to whom such terminology is familiar and understandable.

I can't see the passengers wanting to do it (Why keep a dog and bark yourself?)
 
lustyd said:
The location and season are irrelevant, the weather recorded was severe and not expected. I’m sure Canada in winter have some lovely calm days, also irrelevant here.
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Have to disagree.
Some assumptions are commonly made.
Hence my reference to Load Line Regs areas, eg Winter North Atlantic, where it is reasonable to allow the for the generally worse weather that is likely to be encountered.
A yacht of this size and type really ought to be reasonably expected to survive anything encountered in the southern med in August...imho.
 
Poignard said:
Seriously though Bouba, the cranes and davits on a commercial super-yacht are going to be operated by her professional crew, to whom such terminology is familiar and understandable.

I can't see the passengers wanting to do it (Why keep a dog and bark yourself?)
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Because it’s on the life saving equipment.....on this very sad event, most of the professional crew ended up in the water....leaving some passengers to save themselves (admittedly nothing to do with launching lifeboats....but it’s not hard to imagine a scenario)
 
Bouba said:
All the more reason to put warning signs in plain English
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There is definitely a case for that. The term is odd and it I am not sure where it derives from. We don’t man ride on yachts when lifting a person in a bosuns chair. It is distinct from personal lifting in a cage, basket, referring to a human in a lifting belt, harness.

Over the decades, a lot of terminology is falling into disuse and new entrants don’t understand old terminology. Currently there is a thing in my industry, Procedural Discipline, which is all about plain English, factual statements, that quite critically information. A lot of critical procedures are useless.
 
Poignard said:
Seriously though Bouba, the cranes and davits on a commercial super-yacht are going to be operated by her professional crew, to whom such terminology is familiar and understandable.

I can't see the passengers wanting to do it (Why keep a dog and bark yourself?)
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My worry was that crew, and worse still passengers, would think it OK to be lifted back onboard the yacht while onboard the tender rather than climb and walk....
 
seeSimon said:
A yacht of this size and type really ought to be reasonably expected to survive anything encountered in the southern med in August...imho.
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That’s the part you’re ignoring for some reason. It absolutely could survive the expected conditions and it and sister ships have done so for years.
What it didn’t survive was completely unexpected and unusual conditions that were extreme in every way and not predicted.

My boat would be the same. In the expected conditions I’d be anchored with all hatches open for ventilation. As would every normal person here.
 
Bouba said:
All the more reason to put warning signs in plain English
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Shipping and the offshore industries are, nowadays, extremely "international".
I think my personal record encounter was 8 nationalities within a crew of 11.
Even those that speak a common language perhaps may not speak to each other for political reasons.

Language for signage, Op procedures etc is a real issue...to only some degree overcome by designating an onboard "official language " for the unit, which may or may not be English.
 
seeSimon said:
My worry was that crew, and worse still passengers, would think it OK to be lifted back onboard the yacht while onboard the tender rather than climb and walk....
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If they do, and if the equipment is properly marked in accordance with the regulations, they are being negligent, and if someone is injured, they would have to face the consequences.

If someone sees a sign saying 'NON MAN RIDING' , I can't think of any possible interpretation of it other than what it means.
 
lustyd said:
That’s the part you’re ignoring for some reason. It absolutely could survive the expected conditions and it and sister ships have done so for years.
What it didn’t survive was completely unexpected and unusual conditions that were extreme in every way and not predicted.

My boat would be the same. In the expected conditions I’d be anchored with all hatches open for ventilation. As would every normal person here.
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My yot doesn't have AC, so hatches would be open.

However, nor does it have a professional skipper, nor night watch when I anchor.
However, I'd generally hope to survive an average night off palermo, and if knocked down my 26ftr would - I believe - withstand that.

I think your "not predicted" may perhaps be a tad over generous?
 
seeSimon said:
My yot doesn't have AC, so hatches would be open.

However, nor does it have a professional skipper, nor night watch when I anchor.
However, I'd generally hope to survive an average night off palermo, and if knocked down my 26ftr would - I believe - withstand that.

I think your "not predicted" may perhaps be a tad over generous?
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It wasn’t an average night, how can’t you understand that? It wasn’t predicted in any way whatsoever, that’s a matter of public record.
As you rightly say, there was a professional skipper who recorded all actions and observations so none of this is under contention.

Your aversion to the facts is likely to get the thread shut down for pointless speculation like the last one.
 
RunAgroundHard said:
There is definitely a case for that. The term is odd and it I am not sure where it derives from. We don’t man ride on yachts when lifting a person in a bosuns chair. It is distinct from personal lifting in a cage, basket, referring to a human in a lifting belt, harness.

Over the decades, a lot of terminology is falling into disuse and new entrants don’t understand old terminology. Currently there is a thing in my industry, Procedural Discipline, which is all about plain English, factual statements, that quite critically information. A lot of critical procedures are useless.
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In deep mines with a long run from the main shaft and cage to the working faces they have man rider conveyors other conveyors for mine waste and product are termed Non Man Rider
 
lustyd said:
To the whole Internet and all reports into the incident? How about Google.com.
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But you said "a matter of public record" "
By that I would suggest it could be interpreted as an official statement....

If "public record " is Google or "anywhere on the internet" I suggest you should read all the " public records " where it states that the Italians and the skipper said severe weather was predicted.
 
billskip said:
But you said "a matter of public record" "
By that I would suggest it could be interpreted as an official statement....

If "public record " is Google or "anywhere on the internet" I suggest you should read all the " public records " where it states that the Italians and the skipper said severe weather was predicted.
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The MAIB report that started this thread is a good place to look for an analysis of the weather on the night in question. I would suggest it supports lustyd's observations. The indications are that the wind speed and direction were such that the boat heeled to an angle greater than its calculated AVS for its configuration (board up).

One of the unanswered questions is if the crew had known about the reduced stability could they have taken action to avoid the wind that knocked the boat down - or minimised the the water ingress that sank the boat? The builder claims they could, but the MAIB interim report suggests not
 
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