Bavarias old and new?

[gardenshed]

Bluedragon:
Go see 'em
Go Sail 'em

Take a good look inside the boats, open cupboards and drawers, look under the floorboards, look at the thickness of the veneer on the ply etc etc. You will quickly see the differences and make up your own mind whether these matter or not.

Bavaria Yachtbau have a good website that speaks for itself about their approach to designing, optimising the use of materials etc, and building their boats using a highly automated process. This is different from the way the earlier boats were built and your can touch/feel the difference. You make up your mind based on what you want and how you judge value.

The original Bav's have a lot going for them and are priced accordingly. The new Bav's have a lot going for them, there are a lot more of them, and they are priced accordingly.

There is a huge snobbery in the yachting community about boat styles and types. By all means solicit others' opinions but ultimately build the confidence to make up your own mind by crawling all over as many boats as you can and sailing as many different boats as you can.

 

[bluedragon]

Yup...off to see a couple tomorrow. Good to get the breadth of opinion on this though.

Sub-dividing AWBs: well I think were moving from a) early 90s to b) 2000s to c) the next decade...and that will I think become more and more the debate of the future as the MABs become so manky that nobody will want to buy them...which is a great pity, as I'm a fan of the old boats (the one I just sold was built in 1969). But, 9 out of 10 owners just don't look after them in the way I'd expect, to pay the prices they expect!

 

[Twister_Ken]

When does an AWB become an MAB?

 

[trapezeartist]

Sorry for the stupid question. What does MAB stand for?

 

[Twister_Ken]

Manky Auld Boat

 

[trapezeartist]

Of course! Why didn't I think of that?

I started off looking at MABs, but now I've decided on a Bav. I didn't mind the A of the MABs but I couldn't live with the M.

 

[jonjo]

When does an AWB become an MAB?

When a boat's owner does most of the following:

Replaces the interior cushions and curtains with a new set in a lurid green colour.

Sticks cork tiles over the top of the worn out cabin sole.

Substitutes regular domestic cleaning for a quick squirt of air freshener.

Screws tiresome jokes in brass lettering on the walls referring to toilet habits or the omnipotence of the skipper.

 

[bluedragon]

Or did you mean impotence of the skipper

But this would make a good thread in its own right! I would add when the owner tries to convince you the headlinings always looked like that!!

 

[Twister_Ken]

When there are screwholes and pale patches on bulkheads, where 20th century tech has been replaced by 21st century.

When the stick-on instructions for using the head have faded to illegibility.

 

[aquaplane]

the Westerly MAB Brigade is about to awake from its post lunch snooze.

I resemble that remark.

I drive a Centaur and some Westerly owners seem to spout the "Westerlys are the best boats ever and will never be surpassed in build quality" line get up my nose too.
I like my Centaur, but I like my Pug 406, not everyone wants the same car, why would they want the same boat?

Anyroad, I could only afford a cheap Centaur, it was the best boat for me.

 

[Refueler]

I own a Bavaria and hence I have a vested interest that would devalue any reply I offer.

My second post was an angry response to some Jeanneau owner insinuating that Bavaria hulls are built using a chopper gun.

Edit: His comment was analogous to a Seat car owner responding to a query on Skodas and saying "but I suggest you make sure the body shell is not fabricated from compressed recycled news paper".

So the fact that Bav use a Computer controlled delivery to guns for lay up is lost on you then ?

 

[KINGFISHER 9]

Just read a piece in the November ST by a surveyor who said he's never ever come across osmosis in a Bavaria.

 

[1bobt]

They don`t last long enough to get Osmosis!!!

cheers bobt

 

[cynthia]

Bav 4 two

Yes, I've got one (34), no, it's not for sale. It does what it says on the tin as far as I'm concerned. Got us comfortably from Wales to Greece. Easy to sail, comfortable accommodation for two + occasional guests, no problems from new. At the end of the day, it's up to you to decide what you want - follow your own judgement and good luck.

 

[stav]

What is better built? To my mind 6mm of glass fibre is 6mm old or new. I think you need to reconsider how you look at old/newer.

I was curious about your opening statement so looked up some older Bavs, now I am a MAB through and through but with 40% ballast ratio I would look at an old bav. I simply would not look at anything with less than 33% ballast ratio, because even around the UK you can get caught out and it can be rough and some times form stability is not enough. Therefore my perspective on an older boat is can they be serviced: Can rudder bearings be changed, can the seacocks be reached (serviced/changed). what material are the fuel and water tanks made from, can they be changed without major rebuild. Also the chain plates and keel bolts. Basically can you keep it structurally sound so when you are caught out on the edge of a thunder storm at 1am and surfing down the waves at 10-12knts. You can sit and think oh pooh but hopefully it will all hold together until the storm passes.

On my boat 1965, I have dropped the rudder, bearings had been done (3" bronze housing with nylon bushes), tightend the keel bolts, taken out and checked the chain plates (one corroded and split nut in the hanging locker) and try to go up the mast twice a year to inspect it. Engine, prop and shaft and tank are about 5 years old (but the tank installation is poor). Also have fitted a new water tank and batteries. Tiller steering so not to much to check there!

Have fun hunting and I hope you find something nice, I am sure you will.

 

[Sans Bateau]

Most people who knock Bavaria's know little or nothing about them. I don't own one but I do sail one, a 36 from 1999. The fit out is pretty good, lots of solid wood down below, good veneer on thick ply, secured firmly in place, a bit chunky in places for my liking. On deck all winches seem the right size. I don't like the toe rail, but then I'm more used to an Etap toe rail, which takes some beating. I also don't like the absence of hand holds or a sea berth below. All in all though its not a bad boat.

Now as for seaworthiness. I don't know why, but I, like others I suspect, always imagine sailing in the Med to always be gentle F3 flat sea and sunshine. Well the sunshine is right, but on the last two visits, since we have been sailing the boat, at some stage or another we finish up sailing with a F7 - 8, that's right for up to 38knts of wind isn't it? Last year we had to sail over 35 miles back to our home marina, 2/3 of the trip we had in excess of 30 - 35 knts true, on the nose. OK so the Bav would not sail close enough to the wind in those conditions we had to motor, but I think any boat would struggle in the short chop that develops out there. This year we had a similar blow on a homeward trip, this time the wind on the aft quarter. Point is though in none of these conditions did the boat feel like it was going o break up or some other disaster befall it that some might expect.

Ah! Disasters. Last winter in its marina berth, Berty 2 did get damaged, here is a photo of the stern after the boat had been driven several times into the concrete jetty it berth stern too to:

So what caused this damage, did someone lean on it? Did it get nudged by the HM? No, in Dec, over Christmas in fact the marina became exposed to a violent storm, it lasted 24 hours. First this is where Berty 2 is berthed:

And this is the sort of ferocity that the waves were coming over the breakwater smashing Berty 2 and all the other boats into the jetty, the bow warps just dragged.

The damage was inspected by a surveyor, he checked the whole boat and found no other damage and the insurance company paid out the 800 or so Euros to cover the bill.

So other boats might be good, some other boats might be better, somr other boats will certainly be more expensive but there is nothing wrong with a Baveria, there tough AWB's. So unless one has first had knowledge, dont knock them please.

 

[jason -and the arguenauts]

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[Sailfree]

I chartered a Bavaria 34 in Croatia last year in the summer. To my surprise we had 3 periods of F6 - F7- F8 in 2 weeks. We motorsailed in one of them and the Bavaria gave me no cause for concern.

I also thought they survived the charter markets heavy use quite well.

Most people that knock Bavarias have "I love only MAB's" through them like a stick of rock and have no or little experience of them. To me they are the boat equivalent of a Ford motor car, a far better product that it is reasonable to expect for the price.

Also 6mm thickness of glass fibre is different between old and new boats. Newer boats use a better resin (sorry can't spell it) and often have Kevlar reinforcement in areas that might suffer impact. There are some good videos around showing these so called **** AWB's (I have seen a Bavaria one and a Dehler one) being rammed into quays etc at 6kts and suffering only cosmetic damage.

 

[PeterGibbs]

We're just browsing the used boat market right now trying to decide what we want for comfortable summer cruising for two around the UK.

You might have noticed from earlier posts of mine that we're shifting our attention from the "old mankys" to the "new shineys" for a while, and recently come across surprisingly little difference in asking price between Bavarias of early 90s vintage and ones 10 years newer (say 2003/4).

I know from these forums that the early models were supposedly better built, etc, etc, and maybe even have a "cult" following by now, but is this a REAL practical difference that we'd notice, or another one of those myths that goes around the boating world and simply justifies a higher asking price than would otherwise be the case?

Bavarias are builty at a very large plant in Giebelstadt, not far from Wurzburg - a very pleasant historic town. Take yourself off there and have a guided tour - Bavaria show you the works, explain how they make the boats. You are making a big investment - drill down!Will this offset the welter of ill-informed banter above? I hope so. It did for me in 1997 when I changed from Westerly, then about to go down, to Bavaria.

I had then looked at the earlier built 390's - very nice boats, extensively kitted out with furntiure, not cupboards. Good sailing boats. But they were built in the old regime, before the European market for value boats took off, offering new boats at less than the old 390's. Bavaria then steadily removed fittings below whilst keeping their reputation for fitting solid gear on deck. Arguably the interiors got too stripped - well, it worked, because the competition (Dehler) crashed, and Bavaria doubled its manufacturing capaicty and entered the MOBO market.

In the early 2000's a number of dealers across Europe became disillusioned with Bavaria's policy of restricting the allowance for defects in the build - so eating into dealers' margins. But Bavaria's policy was to drive volume and not all dealers were content with this policy; some bad mouthing of Bavaria boats inevitably followed.

Now I detect some reinvestment by Bavaria in its interiors, as well as a push upmarket to larger vessels. The new 55 on show at the IBS is pretty good. But the list of add-ons has lengthened: I calculate that a 38 ft boat now would need not far short of £30k add-ons with delivery and commissioning charges! A lot of this gear was standard ten years ago.

Bavaria produce about 4,000 boats in a good year, over 50,000 boats in total since starting up over 25 years ago, I guess. (Westerly built 13,000 boats in its whole existence!) They have stood up to untold kms of use - they are fit for purpose, but whether you buy one fitted to an earlier spec or a new one in the modern idiom is a matter, principally, of taste.

Good luck in your choice.

PWG

 

[Tranona]

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Now, I wonder what you were going to say that was likely to wind me up?