Seven Spades
Well-known member
Come on the t is next to the y on my keyboard.
Bavaria 55 / Legend 55
- Thread starter Judders
- Start date
Tranona
Well-known member
Interesting comments. I looked over the boat today. This is not a boat for sailing (wonder why they bothered with Bruce Farr?) but for posing and enjoying water based activities. The sharp edges are consistent with the style and is carried through to the other new boats.
Bavaria is in transition. Of the five "saily" boats on display 2 (34 and 38) were last generation and the other 3 were new style. The contrast is stark. I have a Bavaria from the 1998-2003 period. The next generation was a slight backward step. The 2006 to now range like the 34 and 38 was overall an improvement. I spent 2 minutes in the new 35 (nearest equivalent to my 37). 'Nuff said!
photodog
Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthor
I cant help but think that this is a big mistake for them... one thing that Bavaria has always been is a good cruising boat... most of them actually sail ok, and there are shedloads in sea school use.
There has always been a element of "value" in the boats, which have remained pretty capable nevertheless and make generally pretty good cruising boats.... No one is gonna buy them as a "Luxury yacht" becasue of the value conotations of the brand.... but if the boats arent good for actually sailing/ cruising??? Then I cant help but think you end up with a even smaller market than you have now....
Maybe I am reading this wrong. Maybe there is some new untapped bling market that they are trying to get into....
Doesnt make sense to me...
There has always been a element of "value" in the boats, which have remained pretty capable nevertheless and make generally pretty good cruising boats.... No one is gonna buy them as a "Luxury yacht" becasue of the value conotations of the brand.... but if the boats arent good for actually sailing/ cruising??? Then I cant help but think you end up with a even smaller market than you have now....
Maybe I am reading this wrong. Maybe there is some new untapped bling market that they are trying to get into....
Doesnt make sense to me...
Goldie
Well-known member
We found the gas locker - eventually -(it's in the stern garage). There's space for ONE Camping Gaz size cylinder, and how do you change it at sea? The boat might be fine as a marina apartment, but needs some real changes to make it a blue water cruiser imho. Having said that, I liked it a lot more than I thought I would!
mjcp
Active member
Having now seen it in the flesh I will accept that there are some very "proud" corners... and its actually a 45 in disguise... the other 10 feet being taken up by the garage in the transom.
However, it wasn't all that dark compared with the other non DS style boats I looked round (Sunday, sun in and out of haze through the day).
That said I have now changed my sights: New target boat is a Dufour 405 and if I have some cash to drop the Najad 57 took the wife's fancy.
mjcp
However, it wasn't all that dark compared with the other non DS style boats I looked round (Sunday, sun in and out of haze through the day).
That said I have now changed my sights: New target boat is a Dufour 405 and if I have some cash to drop the Najad 57 took the wife's fancy.
mjcp
BoyBlue49
Active member
Bavaria 55 / Leg End
Just a question that non of the above seem to have addressed.
Do Leg End still make their rudder stocks from plastic? (GRP). The two at the bottom of the Atlantic and others that have limped home found that their rudders fell off due to the rudder stock failing.
I understand that other boat manufacturers also use this material for their rudder stocks, howerver I know for certain that Bavaria employ a solid stainless steel stock of some 4" dia.
I witnsed a local school boat (Bavaria) have it's rudder mechanism serviced and was impressed with the design.
Just a question that non of the above seem to have addressed.
Do Leg End still make their rudder stocks from plastic? (GRP). The two at the bottom of the Atlantic and others that have limped home found that their rudders fell off due to the rudder stock failing.
I understand that other boat manufacturers also use this material for their rudder stocks, howerver I know for certain that Bavaria employ a solid stainless steel stock of some 4" dia.
I witnsed a local school boat (Bavaria) have it's rudder mechanism serviced and was impressed with the design.
Tranona
Well-known member
Not sure which model you were looking at, but most (including mine) are aluminium which is very commonly used by other builders as well.
However, this thread has been more about the style and execution of the boat, particularly the interior rather than the mechanics.
BoyBlue49
Active member
Leg Ends
I had better not bore you with my impressions of Leg Ends then.
I had better not bore you with my impressions of Leg Ends then.
Sailfree
Well-known member
Few comments,
Rudder stocks - wern't the failed Legend rudder stocks made from carbon fibre.
Aliminium stocks are cost effective but surely SS is better. I thought that often the aluminium wore rather than the bearing.
Saw the Bav 55 and Bav 44 & 36. Still great value for money but did not like the dark floors or the 90 deg angles on corners of portholes etc. I also agree about sharp corners they should be more rounded.
Also dissappointed by internal light levels . Need more deck hatches like beneteau.
Overall I think Bav have taken a step or two backwards but am sure they will follow their sales figures and soon get it right again.
Likewise did not like the white plastic bulkheads of the Beneteau 43.
Its always good to come away from a boat show thinking that there is nothing the same size that you would swap your existing boat for as means you made the right choice of an often conflicting set of priorities but it would be nice to find a producion boat I would buy if mine sunk tomorrow. Cannot currently see anything unless I go 3' longer. Even Jeanneau don't cram in as much for any given length anymore!
Rudder stocks - wern't the failed Legend rudder stocks made from carbon fibre.
Aliminium stocks are cost effective but surely SS is better. I thought that often the aluminium wore rather than the bearing.
Saw the Bav 55 and Bav 44 & 36. Still great value for money but did not like the dark floors or the 90 deg angles on corners of portholes etc. I also agree about sharp corners they should be more rounded.
Also dissappointed by internal light levels . Need more deck hatches like beneteau.
Overall I think Bav have taken a step or two backwards but am sure they will follow their sales figures and soon get it right again.
Likewise did not like the white plastic bulkheads of the Beneteau 43.
Its always good to come away from a boat show thinking that there is nothing the same size that you would swap your existing boat for as means you made the right choice of an often conflicting set of priorities but it would be nice to find a producion boat I would buy if mine sunk tomorrow. Cannot currently see anything unless I go 3' longer. Even Jeanneau don't cram in as much for any given length anymore!
BoyBlue49
Active member
I have yet to see the Bavaria 55 in the flesh but have seen a few Leg Ends.
The pics of the Bavaria are very disapointing and confirm my thinking on American design.
Americans are an insular people and only wish to cater for their home market as we have seen with their motor industry.
Fortunately the folks of Europe tend not to like the brash interiors of cold hard surfaces and corners that the Yanks seem to so love.
Leg Ends are made in the US so they are unlikely to change but let us hope that Bavaria see the error of their ways.
I also believe that darker woods will eventualy return as demand for more traditional interiors pick up.
The pics of the Bavaria are very disapointing and confirm my thinking on American design.
Americans are an insular people and only wish to cater for their home market as we have seen with their motor industry.
Fortunately the folks of Europe tend not to like the brash interiors of cold hard surfaces and corners that the Yanks seem to so love.
Leg Ends are made in the US so they are unlikely to change but let us hope that Bavaria see the error of their ways.
I also believe that darker woods will eventualy return as demand for more traditional interiors pick up.
Tranona
Well-known member
Not sure you can blame it on "American" design. They are reflecting the shift towards lighter blander minimalist interiors in the same way as "modern" interior house design. It is the same with all the mass builders - Hanse being the leader. It is also evident in the latest Najad boats.
I am not sure that "traditional" dark wood interiors will return - even though my era Bavaria has it. Some like me like it others hate it because it is gloomy and, well, old fashioned. Actually it is nothing of the sort. Old boats usually had lots of white panels and light wood trim. What you call "traditional" is actually a late 20th century fad where builders discovered veneered ply and were able to disguise the acres of bare GRP.
There is a certain honesty about using man made finishes, even if they are grained to look "woody". The challenge is to make them look substantial and well made rather than a DIY kitchen. Can be done as some of the more upmarket buildeers like Northshore have shown, but still not perfected at the bottom end.
What I find interesting is that my Bavaria looks expensive even though it was not and it is all put together with glue and staples. However it has survived 9 years hard work and still looks great. Not sure the current crop will be the same.
Sybarite
Well-known member
It's nice to have a bit of space if you want to invite friends. Personally even if I had the means I would prefer a smaller boat because many of the most interesting harbours to visit are only possible with a smaller boat. What I do not like is the banality of the design. The AWB idea. And especially I do not like the fact that if you have to helm in bad weather where the pilot can no longer cope you are exposed to the elements. My next boat will have a doghouse or equivalent. Long term cruising is more economical if you can carry large quantities of water, fuel and supplies which suggest a heavier displacement boat than a Bavaria. I find myself more and more attracted to the general lay-out of boats 30-40 years old. I'm sure that there would be a demand if the best of modern design & performance features could be applied to some of these designs such as the Salar 40 (http://www.yachtandboat.com.au/boats-for-sale/listing.php?id=5301), a Halberdier 36, a Rasmus 35 hard top, Neptunian 33 or a Fjord 33MS.
John
John
Tranona
Well-known member
Then this kind of boat is not aimed at you! You need to compare like with like. It is clear that there is not a market for new builds of the type you like which either means there are very few buyers like you or your needs can be met by buying an older boat.
Thinking about it, with owners of older boats advancing in years there is likely to be good future supply as they fall off their perches!
Thinking about it, with owners of older boats advancing in years there is likely to be good future supply as they fall off their perches!
Sybarite
Well-known member
Sailfree
Well-known member
mjcp
Active member
Err yes... perhaps not ENJOY but certainly I believe it's part of SAILING
(much like the feeling of Monday morning sunburn after a non-sunny weekend afloat and waking up at 6am or earlier while on the boat, no matter what time you went to sleep and not feeling tired/sleepy!)
What's the point in sailing from cabin when the weather gets up... you can't see the waves as the rain blurs you vision through the windows, you can't feel the wind shifts and adjust your helm accordingly, you sit in a seat and struggle to feel the boat... might as well get a mobo! (or a Moody 45/62 DS *vomit*)
I'll get my flame suit!
mjcp
Tranona
Well-known member
Back to the basic issue. Boats like the Bavaria 55 are not intended for sailing in the Channel in all weathers. They are for posing in the sun with lots of "mates". Need to have a good turn of speed for the odd occasion when the wind gets up.
You have to sail in the Med to appreciate how different it is and not try and judge this boat on its suitability for an environment it is unlikely to meet.
Real challenge is designing a boat which suits both kinds of environment and main stream AWBs do this very well. However they do not meet the needs of those who think their boating will be in gale force winds and mountainous seas (even if it never is!), nor are they stylish enough for the fair weather posers. So the Bavaria 55 serves a particular market just as well as, say a Discovery 55. The difference is that the needs of the poser market can be met at less than 40% of the cost of a Discovery!
You have to sail in the Med to appreciate how different it is and not try and judge this boat on its suitability for an environment it is unlikely to meet.
Real challenge is designing a boat which suits both kinds of environment and main stream AWBs do this very well. However they do not meet the needs of those who think their boating will be in gale force winds and mountainous seas (even if it never is!), nor are they stylish enough for the fair weather posers. So the Bavaria 55 serves a particular market just as well as, say a Discovery 55. The difference is that the needs of the poser market can be met at less than 40% of the cost of a Discovery!
PeterGibbs
New member
Thank you for introducing some much needed rationality into this discussion. The uninformed ranting about Bavarias is senseless and diminishes those who indulge in it.
I looked over the 55 at the IBS last week, as a Bav owner, and saw immediately that this boat is not for the UK market - it reflects the Maditerranean market even more than the rest of their range. It is not crammed with berths, but can cater well for a family and visitors, is light and airy, no doubt a capable sailer (given the designer!) and well suited to
holidaying in warm conditions.
So maybe the real questsion is- what's it doing at the IBS? Well, did you see the Sunseeker range towering over the show? Same question, same answer. Fellow sailors passing by with their sandwich bags, thermos flasks and snippets of braids are not the target market - but the guys in leather jackets, clearly not British, with elegant ladies on their arms most definitely are!
PWG
Sybarite
Well-known member
I used to keep my boat in the Med. Some of my coldest sailing was out-of-season night crossings there.
On the other hand and which was worse was the sunburn sitting out in mid-summer. One is gradually beginning to appreciate the dangers of exposure to the sun and I have had several operations as a result which prove the point to me.
And so I stick to my point; I like protection either from the rain or from the sun. There are plenty of places to sit out if you want to.
John
On the other hand and which was worse was the sunburn sitting out in mid-summer. One is gradually beginning to appreciate the dangers of exposure to the sun and I have had several operations as a result which prove the point to me.
And so I stick to my point; I like protection either from the rain or from the sun. There are plenty of places to sit out if you want to.
John
Tranona
Well-known member
That is your choice - but who wants to sit in a greenhouse could be an answer. The boat had a bimini which as you know is standard wear.
This is not a boat for doing cold night passages out of season!
It is a platform for enjoying water related pastimes - a bit like a waterfront apartment that also sails. A sailing interpretation of Princess!
