Battery charging (again!) - alternator regulators and their friends

[BabaYaga]

I've taken my Adverc out of the system as the voltage @ the diode input is exactly the same with and without.

Sounds strange to me, I would have thought that with a blocking diode as charge splitter a battery sensing system like the Adverc would be really useful. But perhaps your alternator is already battery sensed and therefore compensates for the voltage drop over the diode?
Apart from compensating for voltage drop a system like Adverc also takes temperature at the batteries into account, a good feature in wintertime.
So even if modern alternators are regulated to give a higher voltage, IMO there are some advantages to be had from Advercs etc.

 

[sailinglegend420]

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I do, however, admire the imaginative hyperbole that goes into nearly all Mr Sterling's literature - with careful extrapolation you can, however, actually derive some facts.

I have revisited Mr Sterling's literature to try and get to the bottom of the OPs original post which I challenged. I would NEVER normally defend Mr Sterling but I couldn't believe he could sell a product that couldn't do what it said on the tin.

There are currently 860 viewings of this post and maybe they want answers too, so I would offer some more observations.

The OP is right in that it Piggy Backs the original alternator, Mr Sterling says you must do this to have the "fail safe" feature. He also explains how it actually bypasses the internal regulator in this text by shorting the voltage on one of the brushes to earth to lower the field coil voltage and hence lower the alternator charging voltage.

"One brush will give between 2-12 volts, the other 14 volts, depending on the output of the alternator.....If we want to bypass the internal regulator we need to put the Sterling regulator on the output of the 2-12 volt wire and give the voltage another path through the Sterling Regulator to negative in this case the standard regulator still continues to work and try and tries to shut down the current, but The Sterling simply offers the current a new route......"

So if the internal regulator is outputting 14.4 volts then Mr Sterling can bypass that and drag the voltage down so that he can at least offer 14.1 volts for Gel batteries. He doesn't say what voltage he uses for Float, it may well be 14 volts as the OP suggested, but that is well below the gassing voltage so should still be Ok.

I don't know if this helps the situation????

 

[pvb]

The OP is right in that it Piggy Backs the original alternator, Mr Sterling says you must do this to have the "fail safe" feature. He also explains how it actually bypasses the internal regulator in this text by shorting the voltage on one of the brushes to earth to lower the field coil voltage and hence lower the alternator charging voltage.

Basic misunderstanding, I'm afraid. By shorting one brush to earth, it increases the field coil voltage and increases the alternator's output voltage. If you look at Diagram 1 in the section you're quoting from, you'll see the text "The example in diagram 1, simply has 14 volts on one side and 0 volts on the other, this would result in the rotor creating its maximum amount of magnetic flux, and therefore charging the batteries at the max rate...". He then goes on, in the explanation for Diagram 5, to say "...because the regulator is between the brush and the negative, and there is always at least 1-1.5 volts drop across a regulator, the brush closest to the regulator can never reach 0 volts..." and then goes on to explain that the Sterling regulator offers an alternative route to earth, thereby increasing the field coil voltage and increasing the alternator's output voltage.

So if the internal regulator is outputting 14.4 volts then Mr Sterling can bypass that and drag the voltage down so that he can at least offer 14.1 volts for Gel batteries. He doesn't say what voltage he uses for Float, it may well be 14 volts as the OP suggested, but that is well below the gassing voltage so should still be Ok.

The Sterling regulator can only reduce to a float voltage if it's installed as a stand-alone regulator and if the alternator's standard regulator is removed or disconnected. Sterling's instructions don't include this option. And doing this loses the failsafe mode.

When fitted normally, in conjunction with the standard regulator, the lowest voltage is the voltage given by the standard regulator. In the installation instructions (in the section on setting up the dip switches for the battery type) there are float voltages quoted between 13.5v and 13.8v. However, in the section about warning lights, it clearly says that the green LED showing float mode means that "The system is now running at a standard charge rate only (about 14 volts)".

 

[sailinglegend420]

Basic misunderstanding, I'm afraid. ..........

I think you have demonstrated that Charles Reed was wrong!

"...with careful extrapolation you can, however, actually derive some facts."

With very careful extrapolation YOU can Actually derive the facts YOU want to.

In my quote he is saying he bypasses the internal regulator by connecting to the 2-12 volt bus. So he now has control of the regulator and can therefore set the lowest voltage he wants.

This post now has now had 900 viewers, so why hasn't anyone else agreed with you or complained because the product doesn't do what it says. Mr Sterling doesn't have a caveat that this product must only be used with old alternators that have an internal regulator set to 14 volts or less?

I hate Mr Sterling because he can create this kind of confusion. The text we are quoting from is worse than the writings of a child.

 

[MikeBz]

I have today emailed Sterling and asked the following questions:

If my batteries require a float voltage of e.g. 13.5V, and the alternator's built-in regulator has an output of 14.1V, can the Pro Reg actually achieve the float voltage at the battery or is the minium it can output in this case 14.1V?

If the answer is that the minimum float voltage will be 14.1V, then if there is a splitter diode between the alternator and the batteries which loses 0.7V will the minimum achievable float voltage be 14.1-0.7 = 13.4V?

Answer received less than 10 minutes later:

No. But if you fit a split diode then yes. Or use alt to bat charger.

I think that answer is saying "no" it can't regulate to less that the built-in regulator's output, and "yes" if there is a diode between the alternator and the battery then the minimum achievable voltage will the the alternator's output less the loss from the diode.

Given that the AR uses a voltage sense from the battery terminal then it can compensate for the loss from the splitter when in the absorption phase - so in this case maybe there is an advantage in using a lossy splitter in that it allows the float voltage to be lower without adversely affecting anything else (apart from a small energy loss from heating the splitter).

I thank you all for your contributions and apologise for raking up some old ground which has been covered many times before!

 

[pvb]

With very careful extrapolation YOU can Actually derive the facts YOU want to.

I think it's fairly obvious to most people that you've made your mind up and won't accept any alternative view. On that basis, I'm probably wasting my time trying to explain it to you.

 

[pvb]

I think that answer is saying "no" it can't regulate to less that the built-in regulator's output, and "yes" if there is a diode between the alternator and the battery then the minimum achievable voltage will the the alternator's output less the loss from the diode.

That's correct. Using a "lossy" splitter will reduce the voltage at the battery in float mode.

 

[sailinglegend420]

...I think that answer is saying "no" it can't regulate to less that the built-in regulator's output, and "yes" if there is a diode between the alternator and the battery then the minimum achievable voltage will the the alternator's output less the loss from the diode.

Thank you for that, it just confirms my thoughts on Mr Sterling. Sorry PVB, but next time quote Mr Sterling as above to avoid disbelievers like myself. I am gobsmacked that he can produce such **** products that don't do what they say on the tin.

 

[GHA]

I think that answer is saying "no" it can't regulate to less that the built-in regulator's output,

Sorry PVB, but next time quote Mr Sterling as above to avoid disbelievers like myself.

What on earth are you talking about?

That's what PVB has been saying all along.

When fitted normally, in conjunction with the standard regulator, the lowest voltage is the voltage given by the standard regulator.

If you install it as instructed by Mr Sterling, it can't drop to float voltages.

 

[sailinglegend420]

What on earth are you talking about?

That's what PVB has been saying all along.

PVB was giving his interpretation of Mr Sterling's confused writings. That is what I was questioning. An email response from Mr Sterling himself does appear to confirm that you can't FLOAT to 13.5v. But MikeBz does say he "thinks" Mr Sterling's answer means you can't regulate below the alternator voltage - but I have sent Mr Sterling another question - can a 14.4 v alternator be regulated to 14.1 v to control Gel Batteries? I am waiting for his response to this!!!

 

[pvb]

PVB was giving his interpretation of Mr Sterling's confused writings. That is what I was questioning. An email response from Mr Sterling himself does appear to confirm that you can't FLOAT to 13.5v. But MikeBz does say he "thinks" Mr Sterling's answer means you can't regulate below the alternator voltage - but I have sent Mr Sterling another question - can a 14.4 v alternator be regulated to 14.1 v to control Gel Batteries? I am waiting for his response to this!!!

You still don't get it...

The only way to reduce the alternator voltage is to adjust or replace its internal regulator.

The Sterling Alternator-to-Battery charger can also give a true float voltage, but this is rather a different solution.

 

[sailinglegend420]

You still don't get it...

The only way to reduce the alternator voltage is to adjust or replace its internal regulator.

But you still don't get it either. Mr Stirling says in the text I quoted he by-passes the internal regulator with his regulator. If his fails this bypass has no effect and the internal regulator still works.

You don't need to adjust or replace the internal regulator! Balmar recommend a very simple two way switch that passes the ignition voltage either to the internal regulator or to the Balmar external regulator. This a very safe and simple "fail-safe" procedure that stops both regulators working at the same time. Maybe Mr Sterling needs an automatic "fail-safe" mode for his AR!

 

[pvb]

But you still don't get it either. Mr Stirling says in the text I quoted he by-passes the internal regulator with his regulator. If his fails this bypass has no effect and the internal regulator still works.

Oh, I do get it, at least I can understand that the Sterling regulator can't reduce the internal regulator's voltage!

 

[MikeBz]

Maybe Mr Sterling needs an automatic "fail-safe" mode for his AR!

To add further confusion, the table on page 2 http://www.sterling-power.com/images/downloads/proreg.pdf claims that for Pro Reg 'S' and 'U' models "If used in stand alone mode, transfers from adv reg to standard if fault". 'B' and 'D' models do not have this feature. When I asked Sterling the question about float voltage I didn't specify which model I was referring to, so there's even more mud in the waters.

 

[sailinglegend420]

To add further confusion, the table on page 2 http://www.sterling-power.com/images/downloads/proreg.pdf claims that for Pro Reg 'S' and 'U' models "If used in stand alone mode, transfers from adv reg to standard if fault". 'B' and 'D' models do not have this feature.....

Thanks for that link - made me look again at the details and for the first time I've found the voltage settings for the RegS on the picture of the box. I searched the net and haven't found that anywhere else. On the RegS and the U it clearly shows the lowest Boost voltage as 14.1 and the lowest Float voltage of 13.3, so how does he do that then if it's running in parallel with the internal regulator? Even the oldest regulators still around would have a voltage of 13.8v. This is not an OLD brochure but the latest info from Mr Sterling' s site?

He still hasn't replied to my email!!!

 

[pvb]

Thanks for that link - made me look again at the details and for the first time I've found the voltage settings for the RegS on the picture of the box. I searched the net and haven't found that anywhere else. On the RegS and the U it clearly shows the lowest Boost voltage as 14.1 and the lowest Float voltage of 13.3, so how does he do that then if it's running in parallel with the internal regulator? Even the oldest regulators still around would have a voltage of 13.8v. This is not an OLD brochure but the latest info from Mr Sterling' s site?

He still hasn't replied to my email!!!

The S and U models are old products. They weren't listed in the 2013 catalogue. They were replaced by the waterproof Pro Reg DW.

 

[JumbleDuck]

But you still don't get it either. Mr Stirling says in the text I quoted he by-passes the internal regulator with his regulator. If his fails this bypass has no effect and the internal regulator still works.

Maybe it's just semantic quibbling, but since the internal regulator is still there and still trying to regulate, I think the Sterling (and Adverc) are overriding it rather than bypassing it.

All this would be much easier to discuss if the makes of these things were a bit, or a lot, more straightforward in saying what they do. It's can't be a trade secret - I am sure that Mr S knows exactly what Mr A's product does and vice-versa.

 

[pvb]

Maybe it's just semantic quibbling, but since the internal regulator is still there and still trying to regulate, I think the Sterling (and Adverc) are overriding it rather than bypassing it.

All this would be much easier to discuss if the makes of these things were a bit, or a lot, more straightforward in saying what they do. It's can't be a trade secret - I am sure that Mr S knows exactly what Mr A's product does and vice-versa.

"Overriding" would be a better word than "bypassing". The marketing of Sterling and Adverc couldn't be more different. Mr Sterling seems to believe that if he puts enough words in, people will believe anything (and some seem to!). Mr Adverc seems not to be able to string too many words together.

In the past, I've used Advercs because I think they're fairly over-engineered and therefore less prone to failure.

 

[JumbleDuck]

"Overriding" would be a better word than "bypassing". The marketing of Sterling and Adverc couldn't be more different. Mr Sterling seems to believe that if he puts enough words in, people will believe anything (and some seem to!). Mr Adverc seems not to be able to string too many words together.

Mr Adverc is, as I think I said, very pleasant and helpful face-to-face, but I suspect that his market, of which practical boat owners are a small part, generally want a black box they can fit and forget.

In the past, I've used Advercs because I think they're fairly over-engineered and therefore less prone to failure.

I chose mine mainly because Mr A was nice to deal with and also because the Sterling aesthetic (loads of small print over the whole front of the device, multicoloured LEDs all over the place) doesn't appeal. Well designed products don't need to tell you what they are doing.