Batteries!

[sailinglegend420]

I will upgrad to AGM before liveabord in MED, but it´s expencive, and also difficult to make a choice of a new charging/splitter systems. Witch system/brand realy get this 30%faster and 98% efficentsy?

See these sites for Lifeline AGMs:

http://www.impossiblebattery.com/dow...on-Article.pdf

And the Lifeline 34 page user manual @ http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf

 

[Cardo]

So we've done an audit to see how much leccy we reckon we'll use. It's a fair bit!

As I see it, we should be able to plump enough solar panels on to get more power in than out most days whilst at anchor. However, on passages with the various nav systems on we end up with a power deficit. And that's without using the very thirsty autopilot!

The boat has a new Beta 35 engine. Looking at the specs, it comes with a 65A alternator. There is an option of adding a second, 100A alternator. Would this be a sensible idea to top up the batteries when the panels can't keep up? I've been informed it has a "Sterling battery charger", though I haven't yet found this! Would something like this help with engine charging?

So far, we're looking at getting 4x 110Ah batteries. Two on either side of the boat to balance her out! Hopefully 440Ah should see us through...

We're also looking at getting a new fridge. Now, I know you guys recommend a top loading fridge with plenty of insulation, however the other half is very much resisting this one. I've had a look and a more modern version of what we have is this -
http://www.dometic.com/enuk/Europe/...t/Refrigerators/products/?productdataid=88071
Looking at the specs and doing some digging, it should draw around 2A - 2.5A. Does that sound about right? It would certainly be better than our current fridge at 8A!

 

[BrianH]

So we've done an audit to see how much leccy we reckon we'll use. It's a fair bit!
As I see it, we should be able to plump enough solar panels on to get more power in than out most days whilst at anchor. However, on passages with the various nav systems on we end up with a power deficit. And that's without using the very thirsty autopilot!

I know you are averse to a wind generator but in such a scenario a genuinely high output one can be invaluable. With my Air-X (400W) when I am underway, if I have enough wind to properly sail, say 10 kts, I have enough Amps to supply all my power requirements, which includes a small fridge, netbook PC and the instruments, including a Raymarine S1 wheel autopilot. With much less wind, often the case in the Med. then the alternator does the job anyway.

The boat has a new Beta 35 engine. Looking at the specs, it comes with a 65A alternator. There is an option of adding a second, 100A alternator. Would this be a sensible idea to top up the batteries when the panels can't keep up?

This would indeed be a logical modification, if the budget can support it.

We're also looking at getting a new fridge. Now, I know you guys recommend a top loading fridge with plenty of insulation, however the other half is very much resisting this one. I've had a look and a more modern version of what we have is this -
http://www.dometic.com/enuk/Europe/...t/Refrigerators/products/?productdataid=88071
Looking at the specs and doing some digging, it should draw around 2A - 2.5A. Does that sound about right? It would certainly be better than our current fridge at 8A!

I have an Isotherm front opening (came with the boat) and it is always a shock to feel the cold air pouring out of it and over my bare feet every time I open it for a cold beer. You should really try to hold out for a top loading model.

 

[multihullsailor6]

I can't really think of any other way to get more panels on there other than installing an arch. The other half isn't a fan of arches as she feels they spoil the lines of the boat, however I can't see a way around it at the moment!

Cardo,

As you seem to be outvoted on the arch issue to put your solar panels, here is another idea for you to try your persuasive tasks on:
Fit a bimini over the steering position / cockpit and place the solar panels on top of the bimini - I have seen this solution put to good effect on a number of long distance cruisers. You should be able to fit three decent sized panels. If your boom would go over the bimini, then please mount the solar panels longitudinally, not diagonally as shown in the pictures, to minimise any effect the boom's shadow might have.

 

[Cardo]

Cardo,

As you seem to be outvoted on the arch issue to put your solar panels, here is another idea for you to try your persuasive tasks on:
Fit a bimini over the steering position / cockpit and place the solar panels on top of the bimini - I have seen this solution put to good effect on a number of long distance cruisers. You should be able to fit three decent sized panels. If your boom would go over the bimini, then please mount the solar panels longitudinally, not diagonally as shown in the pictures, to minimise any effect the boom's shadow might have.

I like your thinking, and this fits in with out plans to get some biminis installed. I've found a picture of a similar boat and used my amazing artistic skills to draw up what we'd like to do. She's centre cockpit, so we were looking at getting a bimini above the cockpit itself (there's not much headroom due to the boom, so it'll be a tight fit). We'd also be getting a secondary bimini over the stern deck area. This would be higher up to allow us to stand under it. Does this sound like a sensible idea? We would then be able to plaster solar panels on top of this.
Seeing as biminis are by design stowable in case of strong winds, etc. what would be suitable solar panel wise? Should we aim for flexible ones that will fit easily over the bimini and can then be stowed when not in use, or go for fixed ones like in the pictures above?

 

[multihullsailor6]

I take it the aft bimini is intended to give shade to the aft cabin so why not make it a permanent, non-foldable fixture like an arch? That way the solar panels could be the (cheaper) rigid ones. Alternatively one could surely come up with a solution having rigid panels fixed to the bimini stand but with the panels demountable / descrewable , connected by watertight electric plugs.

 

[Cardo]

I take it the aft bimini is intended to give shade to the aft cabin so why not make it a permanent, non-foldable fixture like an arch? That way the solar panels could be the (cheaper) rigid ones. Alternatively one could surely come up with a solution having rigid panels fixed to the bimini stand but with the panels demountable / descrewable , connected by watertight electric plugs.

We would probably go with the foldable bimini, however I guess we could sort out some sort of system to mount rigid panels on it.
Would these
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/80-Watt-S...=UK_Gadgets&hash=item4aaed64719#ht_2633wt_922
be suitable? I guess we'd probably be able to stick 3 on there without adding too much weight? (They're 7kg a pop).
Is there any disadvantage to the flexible panels aside from cost?

We were also considering a towable generator that would assist with the passages and provide sufficient power to keep the autopilot and nav systems running.
We quite like the Ampair Aquair 100. This could also be hoisted up and used as a wind generator when at anchor. Anyone have any thoughts on these?

 

[TQA]

We quite like the Ampair Aquair 100. This could also be hoisted up and used as a wind generator when at anchor. Anyone have any thoughts on these?

Had one in the 90s. Did the business for me in both towed and when hanging in the rigging for 7 years. At the time when the Windbugger was the boss and Air breeze 400s were coming out it was by far the quietest wind generator around.

Supplied all my needs in towed mode on passage at 4 knts+.

 

[multihullsailor6]

We would probably go with the foldable bimini, however I guess we could sort out some sort of system to mount rigid panels on it.
QUOTE]

Here are two shots of a very neat and unobstrusive solar panel mounting "arch" with a minimum of support bars found on a HR 321

 

[multihullsailor6]

We were also considering a towable generator that would assist with the passages and provide sufficient power to keep the autopilot and nav systems running.
We quite like the Ampair Aquair 100. This could also be hoisted up and used as a wind generator when at anchor. Anyone have any thoughts on these?

I also like the idea of water driven power generation but don't like the idea of towing something behind the boat which gets entangled in seaweed and attracts the larger species of fish. I like the Duogen, very good when in the water though not the best wind generator as such. Or the Ampair UW100.

 

[grumpygit]

Had one in the 90s. Did the business for me in both towed and when hanging in the rigging for 7 years. At the time when the Windbugger was the boss and Air breeze 400s were coming out it was by far the quietest wind generator around.

Supplied all my needs in towed mode on passage at 4 knts+.

As others I really don't want a goal post on the back of ours. We have twin fixed backstays and had an inox and alloy frame made which clamps onto the backstays which carry 2 x 78w panels in series (24 volt), these have been on for 3+ years now with no problems at all.

If we put a wind generator on a single pole aft this would cause a shadow on the panels and render them ineffective.

I too have looked at the ones that hang in the rigging as an alternative, but these just don't push my button.

One thought I've had if I can throw it open for comment please . .. . .

We have the spinnaker track on the front of the mast, I was pondering if this could be used to hoist a wind generator on a specially made mounting and use when at anchor, having a quick release and a plug and socket for removal when underway?

If anyone would like to see the panel/backstay mountings please let me know and I will take some pictures and forward these on.

___________________________________________________________________--

 

[Cardo]

Apologies for resurrecting a now defunct thread, however just wanted to check your opinion on battery choice.
I've measured up the battery box and figured I can happily fit three "regular" sized batteries in there if I move the starter battery. I was thinking of lobbing in three of these -
http://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/product/DC31/
or something similar.

As per advice earlier in the thread, I'll remove the starter battery and put a small, sealed unit elsewhere.

This would give us 375Ah of house batteries plus the starter battery.

Does this seem reasonable?

 

[multihullsailor6]

Seems reasonable to me in your circumstances.
I bought my batteries from www.alpha-batteries.co.uk .
When you plan and order your batteries think about where the batteries poles are to be if you have existing cabling, you can specify plus on left or right side.

 

[temptress]

Suspect it's a Peltier effect fridge - about the most power-guzzling form on the market and totally inefficent.
Junk it and get a ASU-Isotherm or Waeco unit or (if awash with cash) one from Penguin Refridgeration.

Looking at the picture - I would say don't. IMO in hot climates you need a top opening fridge. Every time you open the unit you show all most of the cold air will fall out and you will have to cool the warm air you let in pushing up the power consumption. A top opening unit retains the cold air better and uses less power.

After 11 years of liveaboard on out current boat, 47ft, and 10 years on previous boat 36ft (in cold and hot climates, with spells ashore from time to time) power consumption and generation has been my biggest issue.

I have tried all sorts of options, diodes, VCR, big alternators, wind, solar, gel batteries, wet cell..... and finially settled on a method and always try reduce consumption.

• Avoid AC devices where possible. (not always practicable so a invertor is available but kills the batteries when in use)
• Use LED lighting or Oil lamp where we can
• Use largest capacity and number of WET cell batteries I can fit into locker
• Independent 570AH domestic and 165 ah engine battery banks.
• Dual engine alternators (independent)
• 150AH alternator on engine - had to modify engine to have 2 belts to this alternator
  40Ah alternator for engine battery
  switch-over switch to allow engine and domestic banks to be connected (this screws up the charging form the engine but is useful in an emergency)​
• Wind Generator

I intend to fit solar panels this winter on an arch when budget allows. Just had 2 quote for a custom arch both around GBP1.5k plus vat.ouchLooking at my options.

My biggest power use is fridge in the hot and heating in the cold or autopilot on passage. Considering wind-steering but capital cost is an issue especially as I have just had to get a new Main and Jib. Hence my spell ashore earning for a while.

When living aboard you have more time to work things out. You need to develop a routine and understand how it works for you in practice.

You can make whatever you have work for you. I would get the boat sorted as best you can and 'fix' the electric system on the go.

Good luck.

 

[OldBawley]

Have seen a German yacht with two Air x wind gens. One was always on a pole at the back, the other was mounted in front, on the pulpit. Only at the anchorage. The owner told me the back one was tied down at night so they could sleep.
I have a small Areogen 4 up the yawl mast. Ok but with growing power needs to small. Two 85 W solar panels on the coach roof.
Just for a hobby I am building a big windgen. Bought a Ametek motor in the US, made the rest myself. The windgen will be mounted when anchored en needed on the Port bow railing, halfway between bow and cabin. First drawings ware for mounting in front of the mast as the older Four-winds, now opted for off line. Less disturbance from roller jib and better options for 90 degrees furling. Start building the two bladed 1,6 meter propeller next month. Two bladed for easy stowing.
Here in Greece, I had the engine running for elect power only once since begin winter. ( No sun and wind for 4 days. ) Dark days are to come, I hope to have a modest 5 -7 Amps from the big one at lower wind speeds. More wind means click-clack stowing of that big power monster. To dangerous and not needed any more. It will look a bit “strange “ but who cares, I am the only one here.

 

[Cardo]

And time to resurrect this bad boy once again!

After measuring up the battery bay and thinking of different ways of fitting batteries in there, I worked out a way to stick 4 batteries in the bay. The engine starter battery will have to move elsewhere, but this shouldn't be a problem.

As such, I have bought 4x 125Ah batteries to stick in there.

Currently, there are two old domestic batteries running through their own isolators. These will go in the skip.
I was thinking of having a main battery bank with three batteries (375Ah) running through one isolator and the fourth battery as a backup on its own isolator.
Does this sound sensible? Or should I just chuck all the batteries together into one big, 500Ah bank?

 

[jordanbasset]

I would put them all in one bank with a small dedicated engine battery. I have a similar set up, 4 x 140AH with 2 x 100w solar panels, works well

 

[OldBawley]

Two groups of two open lead acid 135 AH ( 540 Ah ) divided by a dual battery switch.*
The ones on the switch are been charged and used, the other are at rest.
No separate starter battery. No need for it, the other set is fully charged in case the set of the week is to weak to start the engine.
Every Sunday the switch is set from “One “ To “ Two” and the week later back, so using only two out of four. The advantage : each set makes only have of the cycles. ( Charged and de-charged (182 times/ year ) The resting ones could be seen as emergency starting bat.
The working set is de-charged deeper, I know, but we use no more than 50 AH / night, so even that is no big thing to the 270 AH set.
We do two years with battery’s, liveaboards and never on the grid. The moment I notice the battery’s are having trouble accepting charge, they go. They are to important to be half good.
I know some people saying there batts are 7 years. Half year residents in a marina, always on shore power. Proud the show me the voltmeter. Look, 13 Volts. Yeah sure. That is the voltage of the charging system. Let them go out and sail for a week, then we have look.

 

[jimbaerselman]

I looked through the thread and saw no mention of charge controllers. Perhaps I was a little blind! If so, apologies.

Solar is great, and wind calls for a much higher capital outlay per AH. But there are times when both fail you for a day or three. So the main engine alternator has sometimes to be used.

First step is then to ensure that you're getting the best out of the alternator. Which means that the battery terminal should be receiving 14.5v (lead acid - but variations with temperature) once the bulk charge at high amperage is over (up to about 80% capacity).

In many older installations, only a lesser voltage is supplied, with the result that the top 20% of capacity is rarely available. Battery plates then suffer slow sulphation (loss of life). The solution is to ensure you have intelligent charge control - a charge controller which measures battery terminal voltage, and adjusts the voltage output of your alternator to match. See this page.

Next, this system is fine for one bank of batteries all discharged similarly, but is unfair for a separate bank (a starter battery) which will require separate treatment, since it's discharged to a different level. There are several ways to handle this. One is to have automatic switching, another is to charge the starter bank from the domestic bank using a DC to DC charger.

This may sound complex and expensive, but it will save a lot of battery life.

Personally, I'd never recommend Old Bawley's solution, since it routinely discharges batteries twice as deeply. This accelerates sulphation, which limits battery capacity and life (the rate of sulphation depends how deeply and how much time batteries spend discharged below 80%). OK if you have a good supply of cheap batteries. But I prefer to spend up front so I don't have to change them so often. My big domestic bank (3 x 200AH deep cycle lead acid) lasted 10 years.

 

[theguerns]

battery power

Hi we live aboard full time and have all LED lights, a Waceo 25lt fridge / freezer which is on -18 deg all the time. we have a 6 lt imersion heater run on the boats genny when at anchor 20 mins to full heat. we have 180 watts solar power and Ctek mains charger charger. we have a 450 watt plastic 5 kilo washing machine and a 450 watt gravity spin dryer 4kilo load. we do the washing with the genny running and charge the batteries at the same time. The solar panels run all the lights and the freezer without any other source of charging in normal northern daylight. we have a 100AH battery for engine start and 2 x 125 AH batteries for the domestic. The batteries we got from batterymegastore.com on ebay.co.uk and the Ctek charger from the same place. The batteries were £100 each and are deep cycle marine no maintainance type the Ctek charger is fit and forget super intelegent type and can charge up to 500AH of batteries. on the gas side gas fridges are NO USE AT ALL. and very dangerous on a boat. We have a new Nelson Spinflo cooker with 2 burners/grill and oven that is marvelous and we burn 13 kilos of gas in about 6 months. When hooked up to power we use a halogen oven from JML direct .com £50 cookes like a normal house fan oven (the best)