"barging"

[michael_w]

Why? You want to go left up the first beat, so you go early, vice versa for the right. Admittedly choosing the pathfinder would require careful thought. No worse than some of the anarchy and damage I've seen on big line starts.

 

[TLouth7]

Why? You want to go left up the first beat, so you go early, vice versa for the right. Admittedly choosing the pathfinder would require careful thought. No worse than some of the anarchy and damage I've seen on big line starts.

What if you are in a faster boat than the pathfinder but want to go right?

 

[michael_w]

Start early and work right. Simples

 

[TernVI]

I've done quite a few gate starts, but never in 'big boats' always OD dinghies.
Has anyone real life experience of gate starts in handicap yachts? I've heard of it done for casual club passsage races that's all.

Having some assistant race officer experience with dinghy gate starts, as well as being a competitor, I seriously don't think they are a solution to barging.
Sometimes it's the same old game but with a moving target.
The plus side is that the pondboys don't have to worry about the tide.

 

[Mudisox]

Gate starts are only run with one design classes and normally dinghies with fleets greater than 70-80. They need steady conditions for the 5-10 mins that the gate is open.

 

[Walther]

I encourage those ROs I mentor, to look at the potential snarl up at least 30secs before the start, record on their tape, [or over VHF even better] who is on the lay line, and who is going to have a problem getting in.

There is nothing in the RRS prohibiting that practice, but I would not recommend it. Better to limit communications to the prescribed visual and sound signals, and restrict your running commentary to the tape.

I appreciate that ROs are frequently encouraged to use the VHF, as part of improving ‘customer service’ . That’s nice in theory, but in my experience (both as an RO and Judge) it invites requests for redress.

I have an open mike whilst taping what I see, [not my opinions].

With respect, you are narrating your opinion, i.e. what you believe you are seeing rather than what is actually happening. Your perspective could be off, or your judgment incorrect (I would certainly be open to a skipper’s or trimmer’s argument that he or she was better able than you to judge whether their boat was on the lay line).

An RO’s tape is very good contemporaneous evidence, but it is not definitive.

As flaming notes, there was no barging in the video, someone left a gap, maybe as a result of arrogant bullying - and so maybe more a case of rule 69?

Pure speculation. If someone leaves a gap it could be for any number of reasons (inexperience, timidity, etc.). Misconduct should not be inferred without evidence.

An experienced boat deliberately making inappropriate hails (not clear that was the case here, we need more information) calls out for sanctioning under Rule 2. Personally I would be reluctant to elevate that situation to Rule 69 unless there was a clear pattern of repeated offences.

 

[Birdseye]

Mostly because at higher standard events you will just get held until your options are to ram the committee boat or tack out.

Saw that happen in our club racing. Unfortunately the committee boat was equipped at the stern with a HIAB (?) used to lift mooring tackle. The score was HIAB 5 Sigma 38 nil.

 

[Birdseye]

We live in different worlds Walther and Mudisox! The legalistic, sometimes agressive racing together with the protest system you outline would decimate our club fleet - skippers would simply walk away. Sure we try to compete and win, but the prime objective is fun and fun doesnt go with protests. So they are frowned on and are pretty rare. We either had one or two protests last season, and thats racing every week of the year bar January.

 

[TernVI]

We live in different worlds Walther and Mudisox! The legalistic, sometimes agressive racing together with the protest system you outline would decimate our club fleet - skippers would simply walk away. Sure we try to compete and win, but the prime objective is fun and fun doesnt go with protests. So they are frowned on and are pretty rare. We either had one or two protests last season, and thats racing every week of the year bar January.

The 'we don't do protests here, we race for fun' mantra often seems to translate to 'Welcome to Bandit Country'.

A lot of club racing is stuffed with people who've been sailing and racing long enoughto know the rules, but don't appear to care for them.
What usually happens in such places is that anyone making a proper start is becalmed in the dirty air of a queue of bargers.

 

[flaming]

The 'we don't do protests here, we race for fun' mantra often seems to translate to 'Welcome to Bandit Country'.

I tend to agree. Something I have seen over the years is that fleets who only ever race each other sometime evolve their own interpretation of some rules.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

The 'we don't do protests here, we race for fun' mantra often seems to translate to 'Welcome to Bandit Country'.

A lot of club racing is stuffed with people who've been sailing and racing long enoughto know the rules, but don't appear to care for them.
What usually happens in such places is that anyone making a proper start is becalmed in the dirty air of a queue of bargers.

It's tricky. Race officers aren't exactly two a penny, and to burden them with a protest that'll probably go on until well after the bar has shut isn't exactly fair either.

Transgressions should certainly not be ignored, but whilst a direct chat between the parties won't get redress, it should stop the same thing happening next week.

 

[michael_w]

IMHO on the whole dinghy and keelboat fleets have better rule observance and are always ready to do their penalty turns.

 

[flaming]

IMHO on the whole dinghy and keelboat fleets have better rule observance and are always ready to do their penalty turns.

Lot of truth in this sadly.

Although to be fair I haven't been near a protest room for a couple of seasons now.

 

[Walther]

We live in different worlds Walther and Mudisox! The legalistic, sometimes agressive racing together with the protest system you outline would decimate our club fleet - skippers would simply walk away. Sure we try to compete and win, but the prime objective is fun and fun doesnt go with protests. So they are frowned on and are pretty rare. We either had one or two protests last season, and thats racing every week of the year bar January.

Thank you for sharing your experience and perspective.

It is certainly true that club racing can be, and often is, run on a very informal, casual basis.

The fact that your club has very few protests could mean that your skippers are scrupulously adhering to the RRS (no violations = no need for protests). If that is the case - and perhaps the Sigma 38 barging incident you described was the exception that proves the rule - your club is blessed, and there is clearly no reason to change.

Alternatively, it could mean that most of your skippers lack confidence in their knowledge of the RRS, and are allowing an aggressive few to cow them into submission. I hope that isn't the case. An institutional mentality that "real sailors win on the race course, not in the protest room", etc., generally results in eventual attrition, as people get tired of putting up with bullying. But as your post said nothing about skippers/boats actually dropping out, I presume that isn't an issue.

Finally, it could be that everyone at the club is essentially uncompetitive and happy to sail in a fairly relaxed fashion, not much worrying about who wins. An analogy would be a golf club at which, by common agreement, all players are allowed unlimited mulligans.

There is nothing wrong with the third option, if that's what the members want. They would be at a distinct disadvantage if they attempted to compete at regional or higher events, but they are probably uninterested in those anyway. And although it is often believed that a relaxed attitude to the RRS will lead to collisions, that result isn't necessary true if everyone sails very conservatively.

It's tricky. Race officers aren't exactly two a penny, and to burden them with a protest that'll probably go on until well after the bar has shut isn't exactly fair either.

Sorry, I'm unsure what was meant by this. Protests should not generally involve, let alone burden, race officers.

While ROs are sometimes pressed into service as judges, especially at low-level racing, such double-duty is neither ideal nor necessary. If you have no dedicated Judges available, consider adopting a '3-Minute Justice' system in which fellow competitors conduct quick-and-dirty hearings.

If you were referring to race officers being subjected to requests for redress, I would say as follows.

(1) A fleet that plagues its ROs with many trivial or unsubstantiated redress requests will eventually find itself short of volunteers. Most people are unprepared to put up with petty harassment.

(2) However, ROs are human and do make mistakes. A reasonable number of redress requests is part of the job, and should not be cause for discontent. Indeed, an RO who realizes that he or she has probably erred should take the initiative and apply for redress, rather than leaving it up to a competitor.

 

[Birdseye]

Thank you for sharing your experience and perspective.

It is certainly true that club racing can be, and often is, run on a very informal, casual basis.

The fact that your club has very few protests could mean that your skippers are scrupulously adhering to the RRS (no violations = no need for protests). .

Somehow I dont think that is the case

Alternatively, it could mean that most of your skippers lack confidence in their knowledge of the RRS, .

Some will have confidence and know the RRS, others will have confidence and not know the RRS and a group in the NHC fleet will sail according to good manners and the Colregs. In other words trying to compete but also to avoid impacts either with channel markers or other boats.

Finally, it could be that everyone at the club is essentially uncompetitive and happy to sail in a fairly relaxed fashion, not much worrying about who wins. An analogy would be a golf club at which, by common agreement, all players are allowed unlimited mulligans.

?

No, that definitely isnt the case though there are some boats that havent a hope of winning even under NHS. But there is a difference between competing and being agressive / legalistic.

[/QUOTE]

In the end its about fun with the spice of competition. The IRC fleet is inevitably more professional and more competent - it includes sailors with repeated national championships to their names as well as sailors competing in the likes of the Fastnet. The NHC fleet is more the fun fleet for family crews where theobjective is to enjoy themselves on the water and argue the result in the bar not the protest room.

That said we have a protest on the go at the moment and its in the NHC fleet.

 

[Bobc]

The boat coming in from the right had no rights. Had I been on the other boat, I would have locked him out and pushed him the wring side of the line.

 

[TernVI]

...

In the end its about fun with the spice of competition. The IRC fleet is inevitably more professional and more competent - it includes sailors with repeated national championships to their names as well as sailors competing in the likes of the Fastnet. The NHC fleet is more the fun fleet for family crews where theobjective is to enjoy themselves on the water and argue the result in the bar not the protest room.

That said we have a protest on the go at the moment and its in the NHC fleet.

The people who will argue 'they wuz robbed' in the bar, but won't put their opinion to the test in a protest are often among the worst offenders.

 

[Walther]

[T]here is a difference between competing and being agressive / legalistic.

Perhaps.

Most serious racers would argue that playing the game (any game) properly involves learning and following the applicable rules; and many would say that aggression (right up to the line, but not crossing it) is absolutely part of being competitive.

As far as being legalistic goes, sailing is a self-policing sport and officials (who cannot be everywhere) generally rely upon competitors to protest questionable behaviour.

All that said, I have no desire to tell anyone else’s club how to run its affairs. If the majority of your racers are happy with conservative sailing and an anti-protest philosophy, that’s absolutely fine. Keeping its members happy should always be a club’s top priority.

 

[01_Anna]

I happen to be a member of the very same club as Birdseye.

I am also mother to the one, and only young person in this club, interested in learning to race keelboats.
I stress the words: "young," and, "learning to race."

The description of fair, friendly and welcoming club racing here, could not be further from truth.
I put in a formal protest after our boat was hit within the, "three boats' length,"zone. If this was not enough, the crew of the offending boat behaved disgracefully towards my daughter (underage) and myself.
The RO did not held a protest hearing.
Neither on the day, nor any time afterwards.
In fact, the ensuing correspondence did anything, and everything to further intimidate, and victimise the victim.

The other party claimed, "urgent family holiday," and never turned up.
I have been harassed and both my children were harassed and abused.
I have never, in all my years of sailing,
starting when I was eight, experienced such absolutely disgraceful behaviour.

Luckily the really excellent sailors/racers in that club are kind, polite and friendly.
Unfortunately for us- they were taking part in international races at that time.

End result: my daughter, will keep learning to race-elsewhere.
Mission accomplished, one competitor fewer.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

I happen to be a member of the very same club as Birdseye.

I am also mother to the one, and only young person in this club, interested in learning to race keelboats.
I stress the words: "young," and, "learning to race."

The description of fair, friendly and welcoming club racing here, could not be further from truth.
I put in a formal protest after our boat was hit within the, "three boats' length,"zone. If this was not enough, the crew of the offending boat behaved disgracefully towards my daughter (underage) and myself.
The RO did not held a protest hearing.
Neither on the day, nor any time afterwards.
In fact, the ensuing correspondence did anything, and everything to further intimidate, and victimise the victim.

The other party claimed, "urgent family holiday," and never turned up.
I have been harassed and both my children were harassed and abused.
I have never, in all my years of sailing,
starting when I was eight, experienced such absolutely disgraceful behaviour.

Luckily the really excellent sailors/racers in that club are kind, polite and friendly.
Unfortunately for us- they were taking part in international races at that time.

End result: my daughter, will keep learning to race-elsewhere.
Mission accomplished, one competitor fewer.

I'd be ashamed if that was my club.