"barging"

[TernVI]

I happen to be a member of the very same club as Birdseye.

I am also mother to the one, and only young person in this club, interested in learning to race keelboats.
I stress the words: "young," and, "learning to race."

The description of fair, friendly and welcoming club racing here, could not be further from truth.
I put in a formal protest after our boat was hit within the, "three boats' length,"zone. If this was not enough, the crew of the offending boat behaved disgracefully towards my daughter (underage) and myself.
The RO did not held a protest hearing.
Neither on the day, nor any time afterwards.
In fact, the ensuing correspondence did anything, and everything to further intimidate, and victimise the victim.

The other party claimed, "urgent family holiday," and never turned up.
I have been harassed and both my children were harassed and abused.
I have never, in all my years of sailing,
starting when I was eight, experienced such absolutely disgraceful behaviour.

Luckily the really excellent sailors/racers in that club are kind, polite and friendly.
Unfortunately for us- they were taking part in international races at that time.

End result: my daughter, will keep learning to race-elsewhere.
Mission accomplished, one competitor fewer.

Locals in local clubs often seem to evolve their own 'way of doing things'.
If you want to learn to a better standard, best thing you can do is get out of that little pool of people as often as you can.
With dinghies, it's good to do some open meetings or a nationals, see what you can learn from a different class.

When you are young or learning, it is a mistake IMHO to restrict your learning to a small group of inward looking sailors in one club or class. Once you've learned a certain amount from them, it's time to have broader horizons.

The standard of sailing and racing in yachts is often not very impressive IMHO.
And I think Elvstrom said something about once you no longer respect your competitors it's a waste of time.
It's about the people more than the boats.No point racing people you don't fit in with.

I've watched a lot of yacht racing, and most of it I wouldn't want to take part in. The little that I do, we don't take seriously, too many people trying to buy their way to the cups, too much focus on handicaps and ratings. Unfortunately it can be similar in dinghies sometimes. But at least I can tow it up the road for a change now and then.

 

[michael_w]

"You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors."

God Mk I aka Paul Elvstrom

 

[FourDragons]

I would have thought broadcasting your opinion over the VHF was a little dubious?
Is there really anything in the video which supports a claim of bullying? It just looked like a poorly laid line or a late windshift and a bunch of sailors who were not displaying the finest of talent.
[/QUOTE]
I agree 100%. Broadcasting that someone is putting themselves in a difficult position is outside assistance. You can request redress for such an action. It is of no benefit to the boats starting properly or not getting themselves in difficulties but it does benefit those who are, for example, above the layline. A definite no no.

 

[FourDragons]

Y

Interesting comments. The video showed a long start line and a small fleet by comparison with what we normally have to manage, so it seemed to me that there was lots of room for manoeuvre. And the barger and bargee seemed to be well away from any possible contact. In fact it reminded me a biot of the spectacular tumbles you see in football when someone is looking to influence the ref. Gamesmanship maybe?

But perhaps more to the point, we do seem to have a game of chicken at the start in our club races. OK we are I guess very much at the bottom of the racing scene but the issue of barging has never ever come up. Maybe it only happens if you have black sails?

You mean the Messi Dive in soccer? That did cross my mind too

 

[FourDragons]

We live in different worlds Walther and Mudisox! The legalistic, sometimes agressive racing together with the protest system you outline would decimate our club fleet - skippers would simply walk away. Sure we try to compete and win, but the prime objective is fun and fun doesnt go with protests. So they are frowned on and are pretty rare. We either had one or two protests last season, and thats racing every week of the year bar January.

Sailing is a "self policing sport" and if not policed it is Anarchy. Only 3 reasons for breaking a rule 1/ They don't know the rule - take them to the room and they might learn something 2/ They know the rules and make an error of judgement BUT as they know the rules they should take their turns. If they don't do their turns take them to the room,, they might play fair next time 3/ They know the rules and deliberately break them - take them to the room and if you can prove they knowingly broke a rule throw a Rule 2 at them. As someone said in the post after this if you don't enforce the rules it is Welcome to Bandit Country". If you compare some of the comments about sailing here to Chess it would belike saying if playing a grand master you must obey ALL the aspects of the game but at an after school chess club you can move the knight any way you want. Or someone in sailing progresses how well would your club be thought of if when protested the protestee says "well they let me do that at my own club". The RRS are there to make our game fair and safe, it is a fact of life that some are more serious, more experienced or actually just better (now there's a novel concept in today's Politically Correct world) than others. In my old club there was the racing class and the white sail guys who sailed the course, often with a beer in their hand. And to take it one step further our Monday night's dinghy racing included a clas where the beginners were coached round the course.

 

[FourDragons]

Thank you for sharing your experience and perspective.

It is certainly true that club racing can be, and often is, run on a very informal, casual basis.

The fact that your club has very few protests could mean that your skippers are scrupulously adhering to the RRS (no violations = no need for protests). If that is the case - and perhaps the Sigma 38 barging incident you described was the exception that proves the rule - your club is blessed, and there is clearly no reason to change.

Alternatively, it could mean that most of your skippers lack confidence in their knowledge of the RRS, and are allowing an aggressive few to cow them into submission. I hope that isn't the case. An institutional mentality that "real sailors win on the race course, not in the protest room", etc., generally results in eventual attrition, as people get tired of putting up with bullying. But as your post said nothing about skippers/boats actually dropping out, I presume that isn't an issue.

Finally, it could be that everyone at the club is essentially uncompetitive and happy to sail in a fairly relaxed fashion, not much worrying about who wins. An analogy would be a golf club at which, by common agreement, all players are allowed unlimited mulligans.

There is nothing wrong with the third option, if that's what the members want. They would be at a distinct disadvantage if they attempted to compete at regional or higher events, but they are probably uninterested in those anyway. And although it is often believed that a relaxed attitude to the RRS will lead to collisions, that result isn't necessary true if everyone sails very conservatively.


Sorry, I'm unsure what was meant by this. Protests should not generally involve, let alone burden, race officers.

While ROs are sometimes pressed into service as judges, especially at low-level racing, such double-duty is neither ideal nor necessary. If you have no dedicated Judges available, consider adopting a '3-Minute Justice' system in which fellow competitors conduct quick-and-dirty hearings.

If you were referring to race officers being subjected to requests for redress, I would say as follows.

(1) A fleet that plagues its ROs with many trivial or unsubstantiated redress requests will eventually find itself short of volunteers. Most people are unprepared to put up with petty harassment.

(2) However, ROs are human and do make mistakes. A reasonable number of redress requests is part of the job, and should not be cause for discontent. Indeed, an RO who realizes that he or she has probably erred should take the initiative and apply for redress, rather than leaving it up to a competitor.

Completely correct Walther, we lose more people from our sport because they are pissed off about something or cheated somehow rather than being expected to get a little more serious.

 

[FourDragons]

I'd be ashamed if that was my club.

I happen to be a member of the very same club as Birdseye.

I am also mother to the one, and only young person in this club, interested in learning to race keelboats.
I stress the words: "young," and, "learning to race."

The description of fair, friendly and welcoming club racing here, could not be further from truth.
I put in a formal protest after our boat was hit within the, "three boats' length,"zone. If this was not enough, the crew of the offending boat behaved disgracefully towards my daughter (underage) and myself.
The RO did not held a protest hearing.
Neither on the day, nor any time afterwards.
In fact, the ensuing correspondence did anything, and everything to further intimidate, and victimise the victim.

The other party claimed, "urgent family holiday," and never turned up.
I have been harassed and both my children were harassed and abused.
I have never, in all my years of sailing,
starting when I was eight, experienced such absolutely disgraceful behaviour.

Luckily the really excellent sailors/racers in that club are kind, polite and friendly.
Unfortunately for us- they were taking part in international races at that time.

End result: my daughter, will keep learning to race-elsewhere.
Mission accomplished, one competitor fewer.

Sadly, it only takes one bad apple Anna. My daughter, a bit older than yours (late 20s) but a red hot sailor, 5 worlds behind her and multiple other successes was approached in the bar one night at her local club in AUS by a guy who gave her the old finger jab in the shoulder with the expletive "You're too f***ing aggressive". She called me in CHN in tears. AS luck would have it the incident had been videoed at the perfect angle and posted on the class's facebook page. In actual fact all she had done was exercised her rights, it was he who was T F A. SO i wrote a "learned opinion" on their Facebook page. I didn't receive ne contradictory comment but i later learned that everyone in the class knew exactly who was being talked about. Our sport does not need people like that.

 

[01_Anna]

I would like to thank you All, very, very much for your kind messages, and support.
It means a lot to me, and my daughter. Knowing, that there are indeed sailing communities where integrity, honesty and honourable behaviour the norm.
She is currently sailing from Sweden/Denmark back to home, and I will show her this thread once she is back.
Kind regards,
Anna
PS
I posted a picture in another thread, of our first sail, once the post lock-down travel restrictions were lifted:
racing crew wanted - cardiff bay series

 

[flaming]

Only 3 reasons for breaking a rule 1/ They don't know the rule - take them to the room and they might learn something 2/ They know the rules and make an error of judgement BUT as they know the rules they should take their turns. If they don't do their turns take them to the room,, they might play fair next time 3/ They know the rules and deliberately break them - take them to the room and if you can prove they knowingly broke a rule throw a Rule 2 at them.

I think that's a little too black and white. I have been in protest hearings where both parties were very experienced sailors who definitely knew the rule, but as the hearing unfolded it became apparent that both saw the circumstances of the incident very differently and were sure that they had been fouled rather than committed the foul. When / how the overlap was created is the most frequent here.

Without any evidence other than what each boat said, this can lead to a pretty unsatisfactory protest hearing as it's unlikely that the party found in the wrong believes that...

I've also been in a protest hearing where the other bloke simply lied. I was 23 at the time and the chap was a stalwart of the class in his 50s. And he just sat there and lied and the committee bought it. In my naivety I hadn't bothered bringing any witnesses because it was such an open and shut case.... It's nearly 20 years ago and I still remember it clearly. At the time I was too timid to call him on it, I wouldn't be now.

 

[flaming]

I happen to be a member of the very same club as Birdseye.

I am also mother to the one, and only young person in this club, interested in learning to race keelboats.
I stress the words: "young," and, "learning to race."

The description of fair, friendly and welcoming club racing here, could not be further from truth.
I put in a formal protest after our boat was hit within the, "three boats' length,"zone. If this was not enough, the crew of the offending boat behaved disgracefully towards my daughter (underage) and myself.
The RO did not held a protest hearing.
Neither on the day, nor any time afterwards.
In fact, the ensuing correspondence did anything, and everything to further intimidate, and victimise the victim.

The other party claimed, "urgent family holiday," and never turned up.
I have been harassed and both my children were harassed and abused.
I have never, in all my years of sailing,
starting when I was eight, experienced such absolutely disgraceful behaviour.

Luckily the really excellent sailors/racers in that club are kind, polite and friendly.
Unfortunately for us- they were taking part in international races at that time.

End result: my daughter, will keep learning to race-elsewhere.
Mission accomplished, one competitor fewer.

That is pretty shocking.

 

[TernVI]

I think that's a little too black and white. I have been in protest hearings where both parties were very experienced sailors who definitely knew the rule, but as the hearing unfolded it became apparent that both saw the circumstances of the incident very differently and were sure that they had been fouled rather than committed the foul. When / how the overlap was created is the most frequent here.

Without any evidence other than what each boat said, this can lead to a pretty unsatisfactory protest hearing as it's unlikely that the party found in the wrong believes that...
....

In my view in a lot of 'incidents', the participants know and understand the rules well enough, but simply have different views of what actually happened.
A lot of the time an encounter between two boats is affected by multiple other boats.
There are grey areas.

 

[FourDragons]

I would like to thank you All, very, very much for your kind messages, and support.
It means a lot to me, and my daughter. Knowing, that there are indeed sailing communities where integrity, honesty and honourable behaviour the norm.
She is currently sailing from Sweden/Denmark back to home, and I will show her this thread once she is back.
Kind regards,
Anna
PS
I posted a picture in another thread, of our first sail, once the post lock-down travel restrictions were lifted:
racing crew wanted - cardiff bay series

You race at Cardiff Bay? Your major trophy is a wonderful thing, the Shanghai Cup. Used to be raced for at the Shanghai Yacht Club. When i arrived here in 2000 I founded the first sailing club in China (Shanghai Boat & Yacht Club) since the Japanese War of Aggression as the Chinese call it and did all the research into what had gone before. It's funny reading the club rule book from the late 1800's there are many elements not that different from RRS 2016-2020. My wife was lucky enough to see the cup when she was there with Extreme Sailing Series back in the day. What happened to your daughter and indeed what happened to my daughter has absolutely NO place in our sport and is quite disgusting. Sadly it doesn't take too many small minded people to spoil an experience. Tell your daughter NOT to give up, the thing that frequently amazes me is how many of the 'right kind of people' take part in our sport. As a quick anecdote that illustrates this, my daughter was at Cork 2000 as part of the crew of a Scottish One Tonner. After racing one day she went to 'walk the dock' and came across a beautiful 60 foot+ yacht and as she was looking at the deck gear, as she put it 'an old guy came up from down below'. 'Nice boat' she said. "Wanna look around" came the response in an American Accent. He helped her on board, gave her a tin of Coke and they chatted for over half an hour while he showed her over the boat. Farewells made she headed back to the one tonner. "Where have you been?" Her response was "An old guy called Roy was showing me over Pyewacket" Yep, none other than Roy Disney, CEO of the Disney Corporation well known for encouraging youngsters (remember Morning Light?) but that's what the majority of our community is like, i can assure you.

 

[FourDragons]

In my view in a lot of 'incidents', the participants know and understand the rules well enough, but simply have different views of what actually happened.
A lot of the time an encounter between two boats is affected by multiple other boats.
There are grey areas.

Completely agree, if they didn't have different views one would probably have done turns on the water. I think i know the rules fairly well and they don't really leave any room for 'grey areas'. Someone either broke a rule or didn't. A good judge in a protest will keep asking questions until they can pretty much remove all grey areas. Trouble is that many boats come to the 'room' with no witnesses so it often becomes a he said/she said situation. However a smart or experienced judge (and it takes practice) will start to see the light and ask that one key question that turns grey into black and white. I have seen the "Columbo technique" used a number of times to great effect (Remember the TV show where the detective played by Peter Falk would ask a series of questions then say thank you. Then after a short pause would say "Just one more question" Guard down the real story would be blurted out. Works every time. My umpiring mentor is a past master at it.
You are right though, sometimes a situation does indeed involve multiple boats. The most complicated i ever saw was shortly after the start of the Sydney Southport Race which ended up with collisions and groundings and a boat about 6 or 7 out from the obstruction (a submerged reef) being flicked. They appealed and multiple videos were circulated round a number of us for our opinion - it was really complicated but like so many Sydney starts there were a lot of spectators on the water and a good number of video angles and it was actually a boat 2-3 further out that was latterly judged to be the real cause. Just checked my video index , it was the Sydney Gold Coast Race and we were sent videos from 4 different viewpoints. Link to one on youtube

It was really just an incident waiting to happen. They don't get any more complex than this one - Who'd be a jury member eh? You are bound to upset someone at some point.

 

[michael_w]

Talk about a demolition derby, Throw out all the boats that didn't run aground for not giving enough room. Simples!

 

[Walther]

I have been in protest hearings where both parties were very experienced sailors who definitely knew the rule, but as the hearing unfolded it became apparent that both saw the circumstances of the incident very differently and were sure that they had been fouled rather than committed the foul. When / how the overlap was created is the most frequent here.

Without any evidence other than what each boat said, this can lead to a pretty unsatisfactory protest hearing as it's unlikely that the party found in the wrong believes that...

Four Dragons is quite correct: a really experienced judge can more often than not ferret out the key facts, and do so in a way that the answer becomes apparent to both parties.

Even when the unsuccessful party is unconvinced by the decision, IMO that outcome is still largely satisfactory: both sides can move on without hard feelings, with the ‘loser’ blaming the committee/jury rather than the ‘winner’. Not a perfect situation but it’s much preferable to a lingering, unresolved argument/grudge, or to people settling disputes with their fists.

 

[michael_w]

I was once roped in on a protest committee at a very posh YC. Both my fellow members were Olympic judges and the protesters sailed in the America's Cup. Feeling like very junior counsel at The Old Bailey I kept my mouth firmly shut, on the basis it is better to be considered an idiot rather than open it and remove all doubt.

A very interesting experience nonetheless. IRRC the incident was about room mark rounding

 

[Euphonyx]

if the other boats were on their game he would have been barging, but there was a massive gap for him to sail into so this isnt a great video to use as an example i think. The boat with the red boot line is a bit of a drama queen it appears!

 

[TLouth7]

if the other boats were on their game he would have been barging, but there was a massive gap for him to sail into so this isnt a great video to use as an example i think. The boat with the red boot line is a bit of a drama queen it appears!

I disagree, if you look at where the barging boat ended up (e.g. at 2:05 in the video) they are barely a boat-width from the leeward boat. This is the gap that red-boot-top would have found themselves in, with at least one more boat to leeward of these three making it hard to bear away if a collision was imminent. I think red-boot-top did the prudent thing, especially if they knew anything about the barging boat's skill (remember the were shouting "sea-room sea-room sea-room" as they charged in).

 

[flaming]

I disagree, if you look at where the barging boat ended up (e.g. at 2:05 in the video) they are barely a boat-width from the leeward boat. This is the gap that red-boot-top would have found themselves in, with at least one more boat to leeward of these three making it hard to bear away if a collision was imminent. I think red-boot-top did the prudent thing, especially if they knew anything about the barging boat's skill (remember the were shouting "sea-room sea-room sea-room" as they charged in).

All true, but given that it was shared as an example of barging, I found it odd, as there are so many clearer videos to get the point across!

 

[Euphonyx]

I disagree, if you look at where the barging boat ended up (e.g. at 2:05 in the video) they are barely a boat-width from the leeward boat. This is the gap that red-boot-top would have found themselves in, with at least one more boat to leeward of these three making it hard to bear away if a collision was imminent. I think red-boot-top did the prudent thing, especially if they knew anything about the barging boat's skill (remember the were shouting "sea-room sea-room sea-room" as they charged in).

Wll then. By any analysis its not a very clear example then. As Flaming says, especially when it was chosen as an example for instruction.