Attaching rope to anchor chain

[jimi]

Stupid question time again! What do you reckon the best way to attach warp to chain is? My chain is 30m and I've got 50m of old (but good) 11mm climbing rope (cos it stretches) to extend the scope if need be. Should I

1) Put a SS thimble on it and attach with a shackle
2) put a shackle on the chain and attach with round turn and several half hitches
3) thread through the last link and put a double sheet bend on it
4) thread through the last link and put a stopper (thumb) knot on the rope

Secondly will 11mm rope be strong enough for 7T of boat + crew & equipment?

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[colvic]

Hi Jimi

We have 6 tons of motor sailer and as our second/stern anchor we use 5mtrs. chain and 50mtrs 16mm rope. This has worked in some quite strong winds/breaking seas holding us into the waves rather than letting the wind take us beam on.

The warp is fastened to the chain with the largest shackle that would go through a link. The rope is spliced onto the D of the shackle with a S/S insert to prevent reduce chafing.

The main anchor is chain throughout, and we use a snubbing line as a shock absorber. I sleep better at night with all chain.


Phil

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[Danthegorrila]

Being a climber myself (gorrila!) I use a bit of 11mm climbing rope klemhoist knotted to the chain then lowered down a couple of metres to stop snatch. The boat is 15T and we have had no problems. But using it as a main rode I think would be worried, but your boat is much lighter!

You can do a splice that bundles together the inner strands into 4 groups and weaves them into the chain. Then pull the sheaf back over a couple of links of the chain wipping the ends of the strands and the sheaf. This should be stronger than any of the methods you suggest; I understand it works but it'd be as bold as an extream on Etive slabs! If you did this I think I would test it towing something with my car or something.

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[jimi]

Sorry if I did'nt make myself clear. Most of the time the 30m of chain will be perfectly adequate for anchoring. It is only in occasional circumstances that I woould wish to also attach the rope to the 30m of chain and I would not wish to do so pernamently. So I'm looking for a reasonably simple,quick and robust solution to attach/detach the rope when required.

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[vyv_cox]

Most people would consider 11 mm too light for a boat of the size of yours. Mine weighs about the same and I use 16 mm Anchorplait.

However, Alain Gree's book "Anchoring and Mooring" looks at the loads acting upon a boat under extreme conditions. He reckons it's the cross-sectional area, rather than the displacement, that is the important factor, as this is acted upon by the wind. Waves add a lot more load, especially impacts, but the absolute maximum, according to his figures, for my boat, a Sadler 34, is 900 lbs.

I have ridden out several gales at anchor, with some waves but not direct exposure. I always found it possible to haul in the anchor warp to some extent under these conditions, using legs and back from a sitting position. I once read that Graham Hill could exert 400 lbs on his brake pedal and I'm prepared to believe that he was twice as strong as me, so I have some faith in this number. 11 mm climbing rope should easily cope with this. Rather you than me, though.

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[snowleopard]

i have a permanent rope/chain rode which has to run over a combination gypsy. the gypsy requires 8mm chain and 12mm rope. my cat dislaces 6 tons and has loads of windage so if it works for me it should be fine for you.

for a temporary join, a spliced hard eye in the rope and a shackle would do the job or you could use RT+2HH or a fisherman's bend. a bowline would also work. if the rope is of adequate size it won't go through the last link of the chain (it took me 1/2 hour with a spike to get mine through).

the big danger is the shackle undoing. i once chucked the hook over the bow, the anchor went forward, the shackle to port, the pin to starboard and the warp stayed in my hand. since then i keep a bundle of cable ties handy and slip one through the shackle pin after doing it up.

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[tcm]

the round turn and several half hitches will spread the load at the join over more rope, so I'd use that.

Well, no I wouldn't actually - I'd choose a longer chain first: when the sodding thing dragged in a F7 all night last summer we had 35 knots across the bows, the blimmin plastic anchor ball thing blew out of my hands, then we had to pick up and reset 3 times, and twoud have been even worse with funny jointed anchor chain/rope combo, I think - yet that would be the time to use the extra scope. Also no, I'm not sure that 11mm is enough to hold except in nice easy water - if there's a lot of surging (which is when one might think ooh I'll use the extra length) then I think the 11mm starts getting borderline. So, I would do some teeth sucking BUT since it stetches then it wd probably be okay, and in the morning I would still be teeth sucking but the boat wd probly be fine. imho

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[claymore]

Now that you are a YM

I think we need to see a slightly more complex series of questions being asked. Peons such as myself are entitled to ask questions of the calibre of the one you have posted. Perhaps it might be better if you PM me and get me to ask the questions for you then we don't have people wondering about the calibre of the animal that is 21CYM.

My warp is eyespliced (hard eye) and has a shackle. The warp is 16mm, the galvanised eyesplice is also whipped on - in truth I've never used it. Someone mentioned climbing rope. I used to use my old ropes for mooring lines - bloody useless really, having the stretching capability of knicker elastic without the fun of collecting it.

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Claymore
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[jimi]

Listen laddie

As a dominie ah wid hae thocht ye wid hae stoopit tae think afore pitting yer sizw eleeveins dans tu hole du cake! Obviously ye hae failed tae grasp the nuances o' the question ... back tae the front o' the cless next tae the wee lassie wi' the freckles and pigtails .. thats richt .. next tae Kim ..

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[Cornishman]

Clifford Ashley suggests two ways of bending rope to chain:
# 1516 shows the rope half hitched around (not through) the third link from the chain's bitter end, the standing part being seized to the first link and the end of the rope seized to the fifth link. Simple and effective.

# 1518 shows a ring in the end link of the chain, and then a fisherman's bend made with the rope in the ring.
The rope's end is seized back on to the standing part.

As your rope is elastic I must assume that it is nylon, and this is the strongest of all the synthetic fibre ropes.

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[steve_cronin]

Splicing....

...is the only way if you want the combination to run through a roller and/or an electric windlass.

If the rope is octoplatt it can be easily spliced onto the end of the chain using the pairs alternately and at right angles through eight links.

If it's three strand you CAN long splice this two and one alternating (in strict rotation) which strands make the two and the one, again for eight links but this will need a substantial whipping at the rope/chain join to stop the rope from kinking there and jamming the hawse pipe or the windlass gipsy. (I am very prouid of my elder son for performing this splice in record time on the foredeck in a crowded Simi Harbour two years ago when we needed more scope)

The third, and most popular with three strand is a backsplice through the end link of the chain. It is strong and if neat doesn't foul but i dont like how it relies upon partly unravelled strands being bent tightly around a rough galvanised link. Even though the idea is to arrest any movement between the last link and the rope, working and stretching make this inevitable.

Most of the "Knot" books will show all three of these.

Steve Cronin

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[tcm]

Re: ah but

with many windlasses, will they be abkle to pay out and haul in without some significant bogging about?

With ours, if a lne was spliced to the end as a normal chain, then there'd be a point at which whoosh the whole lot of line would fall.

On hauling up (all too heavy to hold or manually haul) we coudl attach it to separate windlass for the lines - but then could not get the chain to the windlass?
So, i would attach extra line to the anchor chain about a metre or so from the end with a shackle of some descrip.



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[steve_cronin]

Combination gipsys...

like ours JUST about solve this but the rope size is absolutely critical and yes it isn't perfect but since rope/chain is a compromise, even a "make do" you need to help with the yacht's motor taking the strain off a bit sometimes and you aren't likely to be lifting the full weight of the anchor at the joining point, yopu should be on all chain by then.

Steve Cronin

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[Cornishman]

Re: ah but

Try a rolling hitch - I've been using it for years

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[hylas]

Up to my own opinion, the point is not only how to attach a rope to a chain but also how to keep the mechanical resistance of the junction?? (and still be able to go through the bow roller and the windlass gypsy.. )

For me, only one answer: a rope to chain splice as shown on http://www.bluemoment.com/warpchainsplice.html

fair winds and peaceful anchorages..

Alain

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[steve_cronin]

Great pictures! Just what I was saying below but although NOt my favourite, the backsplice will also work if it is kept REALLY tight. Some really well known knot experts only advocate the backsplice (rather like a Turk's Head) but I don't like the way that the same bit of unlaid 3 strand rubs on a rough bit of metal without a thimble - which of course would cause a jam! Knots of any description will not do in this case as they won't go through the windlass or the roller.

Steve Cronin

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[claymore]

OK I\'m having another go.

Your post wiz yin o' they tung in cheek affaires an ye wiz wantin everyone tae gie ye a' kinds o daft teckkie talk abootwhit splices they'd be recommendin. When that wiz exhausted ye'd slamdunk em a' that they shuldnae be considering this at a' as ye hed menshuned climbin' rope.
This is a post which is bein monitored by Mrs Carr's son Roddie an he's seein if youse is uptae ra job o' Yachtmaster General prior tae compulsory legislation bein applied - wi yersel as ra chief applicator.
Jings, Jamesie yer the fly wee bugger so ye are.
Noo, hef a' got it richt jes noo?

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Claymore
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[jimi]

Re: OK I\'m having another go.

Ach no . i wiz speirin' chenyouineally an' a wiz feart that if ah jist tied it oan ah wid floacht awa' and that wid no be awfie guid wid it?
Anyroads are you daein' the marrying o' that Sinner loon or hae ye been defrocked recently?

Seumas o'Shaun the leprecorn

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[claymore]

Rolling Hitch

The rolling hitch is a wonderful knot.
As a brand newly qualified Dinghy Instructor I tied off the Schools 5 wayfarers to my towline to bring them into the jetty from their moorings.
It was a big spring tide - perhaps 3rd hour of flood and I marvelled at how the old Escort boat pulled its load so effortlessly.
I took the outside line around all the moorings then decided to ferry glide across to the jetty.
I looked back just to make sure I was going to clear the moored boats and saw my 5 wayfarers tied together doing around 6 knots over the ground about half a mile away upriver .
Rolling hitches only work one way.
Taught this cocky young bugger a lesson!

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Claymore
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[claymore]

Re: OK I\'m having another go.

Ah'm no sure thet sic as masel wid be ra richt mon fer ra marital splicin.
Ra Oil Baron hasnae a guid word tae say aboot ra matrimonials sae ah wiz winderin if sic as Snaeleper or yin o' they stinkies micht be a guid choice. Ah've always bin impressed wi Byron - an perhaps an approach tae Haydn tae dae ra virtual buntin widae be a bad thing.
Jamesie this cuid be like ra firs world war when they all stairted playing fitba' in ra trenches - a kind of unitin sairt o'an exercise.
Then when ra virtual time is ca'd we cuid a'get back tae ra bein awfy tae each ither agin.

<hr width=100% size=1>regards
Claymore
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